Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Questions about MultiCharts and user contributed studies.
faraz
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Feb 2011
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 57 times

Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby faraz » 25 Apr 2012

Hi Every one,

http://www.multicharts.com/pm/viewissue ... _no=MC-921
Multicharts management needs voting to include Genetic Programing feature addition for future MC versions.

What is Genetic Programing?
It writes strategies by it self and is a advance technology for solving UN-solvable problems mathematically.

Let me give u real examples;
a) http://alphard.ethz.ch/gerber/approx/default.html
open this link.
Now look at the Red line as a Equity curvy of ur system which u want to design.
Press Start now and then press Pause after 2 seconds.
U will get 2 things One Blue line. This is what Genetic programing created and this blue line code u can see in Results section which is created by Genetic Programing.
Now Press the Resum button and u will observe line is start to match our Red line very quickly and its code is also keep writen by it self. u can re-run this few times to get an idea.


b) Now real commercial use of Genetic Programing can be viewed at futures turth TOP systems list.
http://www.futurestruth.com/top10spsystems.htm
http://www.futurestruth.com/top10sincereleasedate.htm
http://www.futurestruth.com/top10spsystems.htm
All systems starting with TSL, r created by Trading system lab http://www.tradingsystemlab.com if u further study trading system lab site u can see flash demos http://www.tradingsystemlab.com/flashdemo.aspx how systems r created in few minutes. All listed systems r designed by TSL http://www.tradingsystemlab.com/tradingsystems.aspx

Main problem with TSL is that its cost is too high for private traders. TSL is targeting Hedge/funds managers.

c) There are other Genetic Programing softwares in market as well using Genetic Programing for Trading e.g. QuantHouse, Alphacet, Cactus etc......

Future is Genetic Programing..................

If u like this Feature available in MC then u could consider voting at http://www.multicharts.com/pm/viewissue ... _no=MC-921

Thanks

User avatar
furytrader
Posts: 354
Joined: 30 Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Has thanked: 155 times
Been thanked: 217 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby furytrader » 26 Apr 2012

There are good genetic algorithm-generating programs out there already that cost roughly the same as MC. I'm thinking of Adaptrade's Builder program which generates system code that can be used within MultiCharts directly.

You can learn more and try a free trial at:

http://www.adaptrade.com/

I own the program myself and it's pretty cool - the developer, Mike Bryant, is a very good system developer himself and is very helpful and responsive.

sptrader
Posts: 742
Joined: 09 Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Has thanked: 483 times
Been thanked: 274 times
Contact:

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby sptrader » 26 Apr 2012

There are good genetic algorithm-generating programs out there already that cost roughly the same as MC. I'm thinking of Adaptrade's Builder program which generates system code that can be used within MultiCharts directly.

You can learn more and try a free trial at:

http://www.adaptrade.com/

I own the program myself and it's pretty cool - the developer, Mike Bryant, is a very good system developer himself and is very helpful and responsive.
****************************************************************************
Does adaptrade work with MC8 64 ?
I'd love to see MC include cutting edge tech like this but at least we could add it using an aftermarket vendor.

User avatar
furytrader
Posts: 354
Joined: 30 Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Has thanked: 155 times
Been thanked: 217 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby furytrader » 26 Apr 2012

It is a separate, stand-alone program that generates trading system code that can be used in MultiCharts and TS. They have a free trial, so you may want to play around with it for a couple of weeks and see what you think.

faraz
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Feb 2011
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 57 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby faraz » 26 Apr 2012

There are good genetic algorithm-generating programs out there already that cost roughly the same as MC. I'm thinking of Adaptrade's Builder program which generates system code that can be used within MultiCharts directly.

You can learn more and try a free trial at:

http://www.adaptrade.com/

I checked Adaptrade's Builder software, it needs more work, specially in the section were we can define our own custom indicators/ variables to be used to design strategies.

MC should have Genetic Programing build in feature for its clients.

User avatar
furytrader
Posts: 354
Joined: 30 Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Has thanked: 155 times
Been thanked: 217 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby furytrader » 27 Apr 2012

I'm not sure what you mean - Builder allows you to incorporate custom indicators in its strategy development, although you cannot optimize those indicators (it incorporates the indicator's output alongside the historical price data as one of the indicators it considers).

Also, on a side note, Adaptrade is running a deal where you get $500 off the cost of the program through the end of May.

faraz
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Feb 2011
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 57 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby faraz » 27 Apr 2012

I'm not sure what you mean - Builder allows you to incorporate custom indicators in its strategy development, although you cannot optimize those indicators (it incorporates the indicator's output alongside the historical price data as one of the indicators it considers).

Also, on a side note, Adaptrade is running a deal where you get $500 off the cost of the program through the end of May.
Yes, I m checking with its author, i found bugs in it. For example;

a) AdapTrade Equity chart generated on close to close trade but we need detailed equity curvy. check pic 1a thats what adaptrade showing then check pic 1b thats what the reality is.

b) u can add custom indicators. but u have to add those every time u load data. there should be a way to add custom indicators in Indicator section permanently.

c) I was not able to translate single strategy in MC with 100% matching trades with AdapTrade build. I send the files to author to check. I found a lot of missing trades in MC.

d) Order Types should be also allowed custom touch for example;
Next Bar at L or H + n Limit;
Next Bar at L or H [0] + n Stop;
etc......

e) waiting author reply for GP code generation structure.

lets see...
Attachments
1b.PNG
(68.64 KiB) Downloaded 1533 times
1a.PNG
(59.99 KiB) Downloaded 1524 times

bwb
Posts: 15
Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Location: Palm Beach
Has thanked: 3 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby bwb » 28 Apr 2012

Looks like you can only run the builder for one market at a time...

faraz
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Feb 2011
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 57 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby faraz » 01 May 2012

I completed my tests using AdapTrade Build and get to the conclusion that this product's strategy designing structure is low quality due to that it is not able to design quality trade able strategies.

we need a total custom Genetic programing feature in Multicharts.
Which can allow user custom inputs;
a) indicators
b) entry
c) exit
d) fitness function
e) operators e.g. +, -, /, *, and, or, <, > etc...


https://www.multicharts.com/pm/viewissu ... _no=MC-921
Multicharts management needs voting to include Genetic Programing feature addition for future MC versions. If any of you like AdapTrade still good for u but there is no harm in having GP feature as MC build in.

Thanks

DRCM
Posts: 164
Joined: 17 Apr 2011
Location: England
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby DRCM » 03 May 2012

+1

faraz
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Feb 2011
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 57 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby faraz » 03 May 2012

+1
DRCM
U need to vote on this link http://www.multicharts.com/pm/viewissue ... _no=MC-921

DRCM
Posts: 164
Joined: 17 Apr 2011
Location: England
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby DRCM » 03 May 2012

Hello, faraz

saying "+1" I meant I`ve voted for it already ;)
sorry about uncertainty.
Also, my opinion is that MC team has a lot of to do to catch up with some other cheaper in price softwares considering MC price and it`s capabilities in speed, backtesting and optimisation. Never-ending bug stories with every single release as well ( interesting how they will be able to handle everything when they release another product MultiCharts.NET ).
No offence, IMHO

Emmanuel
Posts: 355
Joined: 21 May 2009
Has thanked: 109 times
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby Emmanuel » 04 May 2012

Hi Faraz,

This is an excellent idea, VOTE +++1 !!!!

I checked, http://alphard.ethz.ch/gerber/approx/default.html

It work well, this would be a good idea to develop it into MC !

I checked http://www.tradingsystemlab.com/ Vote +++1 ! As well !!

This is really a good quality work and very compleat.

1/ Do you know the cost of tradingsystemlab ?

2/ Does tradingsystemlab have any agreement with Multicharts, for Multicharts users ? (cost)

Emmanuel

faraz
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Feb 2011
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 57 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby faraz » 04 May 2012

Hi Faraz,

This is an excellent idea, VOTE +++1 !!!!

I checked, http://alphard.ethz.ch/gerber/approx/default.html

It work well, this would be a good idea to develop it into MC !

I checked http://www.tradingsystemlab.com/ Vote +++1 ! As well !!

This is really a good quality work and very compleat.

1/ Do you know the cost of tradingsystemlab ?

2/ Does tradingsystemlab have any agreement with Multicharts, for Multicharts users ? (cost)

Emmanuel

1) $60,000 for 2 years then $20,000 per annum.
2) No, Tradingsystemlab is an independent company.


Please U need to vote on this link http://www.multicharts.com/pm/viewissue ... _no=MC-921

Thanks

Emmanuel
Posts: 355
Joined: 21 May 2009
Has thanked: 109 times
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby Emmanuel » 04 May 2012

Hi Faraz,

It's done, it is an excellent idea.

Trading system lab is a good model.

This would really awesome, Multicharts would arrive directly to the next level.

I think it is the best improvement Multicharts can bring to MC

Genetic Programing is so important, that this development could be a priority number 1

Emmanuel

User avatar
JoshM
Posts: 2195
Joined: 20 May 2011
Location: The Netherlands
Has thanked: 1542 times
Been thanked: 1565 times
Contact:

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby JoshM » 04 May 2012

I think it is the best improvement Multicharts can bring to MC

Genetic Programing is so important, that this development could be a priority number 1
I don't want to sound pessimistic, but it sounds a lot like data mining & curve fitting.

Do you guys have a paper that conclusively shows the benefits of using genetic programming for trading strategies? The ones that I found where not that convincing (for me), and the excess returns not so much that it would warrant developing such a thing, but I'd like to know more about this. :)

User avatar
furytrader
Posts: 354
Joined: 30 Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Has thanked: 155 times
Been thanked: 217 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby furytrader » 04 May 2012

The most important thing with GA is to make sure you're not curve-fitting - which can be very hard to do. In the GA work I've done with Adaptrade Builder, I focus on keeping things simple, running lots of tests, and doing extensive out-of-sample testing to see what holds up.

One of the things that persuaded me about the value of GA is talking with a prop trader whose entire firm is based on doing HFT strategies that are developed using genetic algorithms. He's been quite successful.

faraz
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Feb 2011
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 57 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby faraz » 04 May 2012

Do you guys have a paper that conclusively shows the benefits of using genetic programming for trading strategies?
http://www.futurestruth.com/top10spsystems.htm
http://www.futurestruth.com/top10sincereleasedate.htm
http://www.futurestruth.com/top10spsystems.htm

Good question: All TSL starting strategies in FuturesTruth top ten list r the TSL design. I hope this could satisfy any body.

Yes, its a data mining and curve fitting technique but a way more advance and proven method. MC got Genetic Algorithm (GA). GA and GP both works in same way only difference is GA works on available define Tree where as GP writes code by it self.

User avatar
JoshM
Posts: 2195
Joined: 20 May 2011
Location: The Netherlands
Has thanked: 1542 times
Been thanked: 1565 times
Contact:

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby JoshM » 04 May 2012

One of the things that persuaded me about the value of GA is talking with a prop trader whose entire firm is based on doing HFT strategies that are developed using genetic algorithms. He's been quite successful.
I agree that it might have value for highly capitalized traders, since if they can find an additional 1.5% excess return, it's time to pop the champagne. :) For us 'retail traders', such a small additional excess return (or even if it's multiples of that) might not be worth while (for us traders and for MultiCharts to code it), and I'm doubtful if it's worth the risk of (additional) curve fitting and data mining. If you understand what I mean.

Btw, I'm not saying it's a wrong approach or that Adaptrader's program has no value, it's just that I have some doubts about the feasibility about this, which I though I should raise here, since the comments in this thread were that MultiCharts should make genetic programming a top priority, which I don't think would be a good idea. Thus, my scepticism. :)
http://www.futurestruth.com/top10spsystems.htm
http://www.futurestruth.com/top10sincereleasedate.htm
http://www.futurestruth.com/top10spsystems.htm

Good question: All TSL starting strategies in FuturesTruth top ten list r the TSL design. I hope this could satisfy any body.
I don't find these very convincing, sorry. If I read it correctly, these returns are from January 2012 through April 2012, calculated on "margin" (not specified whether it's broker or exchange, intraday or overnight), only 8 strategies are genetic programmed, and there's nothing about risk (drawdown, risk per trade, etc) - just returns. There's also nothing about the type of strategy, though ES, CL, NG, DX and "US" seem to be the instrument used. It's also not stated how big the pool is from which these 10 systems are drawn.

Don't get me wrong, those are indeed good returns, but based on the Top 10's data we can't say whether they're good risk-adjusted returns and the small sample size and time period is not a proof that genetic programming works.

faraz
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Feb 2011
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 57 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby faraz » 04 May 2012

I don't find these very convincing, sorry.
download strategy reports http://www.tradingsystemlab.com/tradingsystems.aspx

Emmanuel
Posts: 355
Joined: 21 May 2009
Has thanked: 109 times
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: Vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC

Postby Emmanuel » 04 May 2012

Hi

I checked, http://www.tradingsystemlab.com/

This product is good.

Their is no problem of curve fitting, as long as the length period out of sample is less than 10 % of the length of the period in sample.

I vote for Genetic Programing feature addition in MC !!

Emmanuel


Return to “MultiCharts”