Why I won't change from TS 8 to MC

Questions about MultiCharts and user contributed studies.
brendanh
Posts: 158
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Has thanked: 1 time

Why I won't change from TS 8 to MC

Postby brendanh » 25 Nov 2007

Multicharts is ahead of TS8 in some respects such as optimization and it's integration with Interactive Brokers is potentially a TS-killer, but until it offers a similar level of data functionality, I and people like me won't change. I have used TS 2000i, WealthLab and now TS8. Data management is completely seamless in TS8, but a taxing chore in Multicharts. Look at the posts in this forum, I'd estimate around half relate to data feed issues. Being a succesful trader in itself is hard enough, data should be something you don't have to think about. When I used other charting packages, I spent much of my time managing data rather than developing and running trading systems. To compete with TS, MC needs to offer similar level of data functionality as TS8. That means data that just works, in the background, with zero-administration. Continuous futures symbols with years of intraday data, custom futures symobls that roll when user-defined criteria are met. If that means having a two tier product, whereby a premium is charged for a powerful integrated data feed, then so be it. I would be willing to pay extra.

aljafp
Posts: 184
Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Why I won't change from TS 8 to MC

Postby aljafp » 25 Nov 2007

Multicharts is ahead of TS8 in some respects such as optimization and it's integration with Interactive Brokers is potentially a TS-killer, but until it offers a similar level of data functionality, I and people like me won't change. I have used TS 2000i, WealthLab and now TS8. Data management is completely seamless in TS8, but a taxing chore in Multicharts. Look at the posts in this forum, I'd estimate around half relate to data feed issues. Being a succesful trader in itself is hard enough, data should be something you don't have to think about. When I used other charting packages, I spent much of my time managing data rather than developing and running trading systems. To compete with TS, MC needs to offer similar level of data functionality as TS8. That means data that just works, in the background, with zero-administration. Continuous futures symbols with years of intraday data, custom futures symobls that roll when user-defined criteria are met. If that means having a two tier product, whereby a premium is charged for a powerful integrated data feed, then so be it. I would be willing to pay extra.


I think if MC is to charge a premium for a powerful integrated data feed, than it makes less sense for TS 8 users to switch to MC.

It may also make it less attractive to users deciding between TS 8 and MC.

Having said all that, yes i agree the data management features in MC must improve, personally i would like:
1. scheduler to automatically download data,
2. continuous futures

User avatar
Marina Pashkova
Posts: 2758
Joined: 27 Jul 2007

Postby Marina Pashkova » 26 Nov 2007

Hi brendanh,

What you say is all true. You are right saying that the data should be just there so that the traders didn't have to think about it. Also, most of the problems we help the customers solve are related to the datafeeds. This is why we are planning to integrate our own data feed into MultiCharts - thus making life easier for our customers. However, this is a very gradual process. It normally takes years to develop reliable and seamless datafeeds. We are going to start with the most popular futures gradually expanding the scope.

However, this is only a part of the problem. The thing is, most users want to be able to choose between data feeds. They want to have the freedom of choice that MultiCharts provides.

In future, we will try to combine the default integrated datafeed and the ability to choose from a number of other data feeds as well.

Regards.

User avatar
gautama2
Posts: 96
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Postby gautama2 » 26 Nov 2007

I was TS8 user as i wanted a good testing platform and a second account if IB was not available. But í switched to MC and canceled TS account.

My point is, that i need a platform for testing and then be able to use my formulas immediately with IB account also for EUREX futures. (EUREX futures were announced since years and still not available.) I can't do this with TS8 without some additional patch programs. TS8 has also data, but this is not a problem for me, as i do anyway handle my database and do this since years without problems. I do not want to pay for this with higher fees that ruin many good systems in short-term windows.
I also do not like having a software that is dependent on a broker account or can only be used for additional money each month. I like to have that independance regarding soft and database, that i can use also if i change my account or whatever. but this "pay once, use forever" is just my point of view. If you like to concentrate on trading only, you have have to pay for the additional service. i like to have control over my data and my soft at least for testing purposes and do not want to have access only if i pay every month.

Regards
Robert

kh_model
Posts: 33
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Has thanked: 6 times

on the positive side...

Postby kh_model » 27 Nov 2007

TS Support currently gives people the freedom to maintain their own database of market data, which I believe is a unique and very valuable advantage.

Learning to use a tool like QuoteManager effectively (especially under "real world trading conditions") may take a bit of practice, but like everything else, the reward may well be worth it until you know for sure that your trading skills are actually good enough to justify spending thousands of extra dollars per year on more expensive platforms and datafeeds in exchange for some additional "convenience".

TS Support has already provided so many brilliant solutions. Once a few skills are mastered, the task of maintaining the database is not too bad. Even if a database is large, there are several "task automation" programs available to help remove much of the work. Importantly, TS Support already provides ways for the user to choose an approach to data management that is best for his or her own needs.

I feel that there is only one true "make or break" feature that still needs to be implemented in QuoteManager, and that is the "holiday" list.

In my opinion it is currently quite possible to work around other limitations (like not having "continuous contracts" at IB for example) either by subscribing to a more expensive datafeed like eSignal, or simply by doing a bit of manual work now and then such as exporting, splicing, merging, and finally re-importing data for the relatively few contracts that you actually need to chart.

User avatar
Marina Pashkova
Posts: 2758
Joined: 27 Jul 2007

Postby Marina Pashkova » 28 Nov 2007

Thank you for such positive comments on MultiCharts!

We are going to try and combine the freedom of choice between the datafeeds as well as a built-in datafeed.

Regarding the holiday list: we are going to indroduce a functional holiday list in future MC versions.

Regards.

itai007
Posts: 69
Joined: 14 Jun 2007

First setup is alot of work but then you have no data-issues

Postby itai007 » 01 Dec 2007

Although MC posts some data feeds available through the selection that actually don't really work with MC (like the problems Im having with IQfeed , ) Im sorry to say you cant compare TS to MC on data issues because through MC you can have you own world wide multi exchange trading platform
. TS has only US (unless this has changed lately).

MC is not a data provider but a program developing solution for traders much like smatquant for supper advanced or large scale institutions is.

MC is a much stronger developing platform nothing can be said about that and it is for the more advanced dev-trader.

I think this is their strong-hold and this is where they should concentrate and continue their leadership.

FIX the data feeds you say you have and thats it. other than that , nothing tops them in their level of users.

Grigorios
Posts: 49
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Postby Grigorios » 02 Dec 2007

continuous contracts ? user defined rollover schedule? symbol substitution?
ohh man you have to be a trader to understand those terms and the importance of them...and seems no one of the developers is trading futures contracts..great platforms as Ensign and Neoticker have build in continuous symbols and rollover schedule..take a look...it's really very
simple to implement...
Attachments
roll schedule.PNG
roll schedule.PNG (20.24 KiB) Viewed 1060 times
2.PNG
2.PNG (21.43 KiB) Viewed 1060 times
3.PNG
3.PNG (20.57 KiB) Viewed 1065 times

User avatar
Marina Pashkova
Posts: 2758
Joined: 27 Jul 2007

Re: First setup is alot of work but then you have no data-is

Postby Marina Pashkova » 03 Dec 2007

Although MC posts some data feeds available through the selection that actually don't really work with MC (like the problems Im having with IQfeed , )
FIX the data feeds you say you have and thats it. other than that , nothing tops them in their level of users.


Dear itai 007,

We didn't 'forget' to put a tab for indexes. IQFeed API only allows the following lookup for three categories because they only have 3 API mentods:
LookupEquitySymbol - Stock
LookupOptionSymbol - Option
LookupFutureSymbol - Future

We have just realized the potential that the datafeed's API provides. There's no way we can implement something that's not provided by IQFeed's API.

Indexes must be looked up on the Stock tab.

Lookup For Dax future or mini SP500 on the Future tab returns a list of options - if you have chosen search by description.

Once again, it's not because we 'forgot' or 'underimplemented' something, but because that's the way IQFeed data works and there's nothing that can be done about it on our end.

You can add symbols manually to avoid the problems because of the way IQFeed handles Lookup.

User avatar
Marina Pashkova
Posts: 2758
Joined: 27 Jul 2007

Postby Marina Pashkova » 03 Dec 2007

continuous contracts ? user defined rollover schedule? symbol substitution?
ohh man you have to be a trader to understand those terms and the importance of them...and seems no one of the developers is trading futures contracts..great platforms as Ensign and Neoticker have build in continuous symbols and rollover schedule..take a look...it's really very
simple to implement...


Hi Grigorios,

Those are all very important features and we are planning to implement them in future MC versions.

SUPER
Posts: 631
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 81 times

Postby SUPER » 03 Dec 2007

I have been trying out MC for over a week now with IB data feed and I am quite pleased to state that MC is very stable program but it seriously handicaped with the data problems. Once the proposed updates (Limit, Stop order, intrabar order etc) are implemented it would be something worth considering. I am using TS for over 10 years and will certainly use MC once it is able to offer TS functionality along with choice of data, brokerage account.

Grigorios
Posts: 49
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Postby Grigorios » 03 Dec 2007

I hope so marina... i have told you about them 1 year ago....

Nick
Posts: 490
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 24 times

Postby Nick » 07 Dec 2007

Data management preferably with options to do stuff automatically (like rollover). Is what I would class as 'core functionality'. I've been banging on and on about it for ages too :)

Cheers,
Nick

Edit: And holiday lists and more flexibility in exchange session times! I am not a systems trader and don't use backtesting so take my observation with a grain of salt. But I just cant imagine anyone using these features in a professional environment without better control of the data they are testing!

patrick ifrah
Posts: 1
Joined: 03 Dec 2007

TS 8 vs MC

Postby patrick ifrah » 21 Dec 2007

I initially thought that MC had the right model because one would have the flexibility to choose a data vendor or multiple ones. Now I understand why TS forces the integration of the software with the data. It seems that with all the feed issues with MC, one has to spend way too much time dealing with nonsense which makes the nominal monthly fee for TS a huge value. It is only $30 more than MC per month for platform and data. I still like MC because I see the potential based on what they have accomplished and what I think they can do. They must however find a way to at least give a data option that they control or can make available seamlessly. The non-sense of having to set up symbols prior to using is ridiculous. There should be an easy go option. The use of some of these data vendors is too slow compared to using TS.

glam_100
Posts: 157
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Postby glam_100 » 24 Dec 2007

The problem with TS is they've become a brokerage and lost all incentive to improve their platform. If you look at TS8 and TS2000i, you really don't find much major improvements except for look-inside-bar and intrabar order generations (which are great to their credit). Users have been asking for critical features such as portoflio testing, genetic optimization, multi-core optimization, seconds bar, seconds time stamps, range bar etc... we've got hundreds of votes on their so-called feature request polls for YEARS and most of those requests have fallen into deaf ears because they no longer care about their platform or for that matter your research with their platform. All they're interested in is to get your money into their brokerage.

It is not like MC has all the features either but it is clear that they're working on improving their platform whereas for TS it is clear the platform is no longer their priority. Just look at multi-core optimization, they could have thrown it in long time ago given their man power but they just won't do it. They don't give a damn. Now that the quad core has become main stream it makes no sense for users to got stuck with 1/4 of productivity especially new 8 cores and 16 cores are going to come out in the future and it becomes ridiculous to wait for 2 hours optimization when it can be done in 10 minutes.

I use both TS and MC but I find myself using MC more and more often.

User avatar
Marina Pashkova
Posts: 2758
Joined: 27 Jul 2007

Postby Marina Pashkova » 28 Dec 2007

I have been trying out MC for over a week now with IB data feed and I am quite pleased to state that MC is very stable program but it seriously handicaped with the data problems. Once the proposed updates (Limit, Stop order, intrabar order etc) are implemented it would be something worth considering. I am using TS for over 10 years and will certainly use MC once it is able to offer TS functionality along with choice of data, brokerage account.


Hello SUPER,

Limit and Stop orders as well as intrabar order generation will soon be implemented. Intrabar order generation is now basically ready and being tested.

Best regards.

User avatar
Marina Pashkova
Posts: 2758
Joined: 27 Jul 2007

Re: TS 8 vs MC

Postby Marina Pashkova » 28 Dec 2007

I initially thought that MC had the right model because one would have the flexibility to choose a data vendor or multiple ones. Now I understand why TS forces the integration of the software with the data. It seems that with all the feed issues with MC, one has to spend way too much time dealing with nonsense which makes the nominal monthly fee for TS a huge value. It is only $30 more than MC per month for platform and data. I still like MC because I see the potential based on what they have accomplished and what I think they can do. They must however find a way to at least give a data option that they control or can make available seamlessly. The non-sense of having to set up symbols prior to using is ridiculous. There should be an easy go option. The use of some of these data vendors is too slow compared to using TS.


Hi Patrick,

We admit that we overcomplicated symbol handling. We are now trying to overcome the limitations. It will soon be possible to plot symbols without having to add them through QuoteManager first. All you would need to do is type in the symbol name into the command line and plot a chart. This feature combined with the premium quality quotes from eSignal would make MultiCharts in no way worse than TS.

Best regards.

User avatar
Marina Pashkova
Posts: 2758
Joined: 27 Jul 2007

Postby Marina Pashkova » 28 Dec 2007

The problem with TS is they've become a brokerage and lost all incentive to improve their platform. If you look at TS8 and TS2000i, you really don't find much major improvements except for look-inside-bar and intrabar order generations (which are great to their credit). Users have been asking for critical features such as portoflio testing, genetic optimization, multi-core optimization, seconds bar, seconds time stamps, range bar etc... we've got hundreds of votes on their so-called feature request polls for YEARS and most of those requests have fallen into deaf ears because they no longer care about their platform or for that matter your research with their platform. All they're interested in is to get your money into their brokerage.

It is not like MC has all the features either but it is clear that they're working on improving their platform whereas for TS it is clear the platform is no longer their priority. Just look at multi-core optimization, they could have thrown it in long time ago given their man power but they just won't do it. They don't give a damn. Now that the quad core has become main stream it makes no sense for users to got stuck with 1/4 of productivity especially new 8 cores and 16 cores are going to come out in the future and it becomes ridiculous to wait for 2 hours optimization when it can be done in 10 minutes.

I use both TS and MC but I find myself using MC more and more often.


Hi glam_100,

You are right. We realized the importance of supporting multi-cores a while ago. By now MultiCharts shows x12 gain in performance when 16 cores are used. We are planning to increase performance even further.

Regards.


Return to “MultiCharts”