PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

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tony
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PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby tony » 28 Jan 2014

I was curious if anyone uses PATS and or TT for automated trading? And if so, if you would be so kind to share feedback. I have been simulated testing with IB for a few months, but the client I am working with cannot use IB due to who they do not clear through. So PATS and possibly TT appear to be the two options.

Regarding IB, I will say I am not overly impressed. In simulated trading I had a few instances where MP_at_Broker never seemed to write back to MC and I'm pretty sure it was IB related. This caused OCO orders to never trigger. Most recently I installed MC on a new machine and had to download TWS. I apparently downloaded the newest version and had a doozy of problems. The biggest was MC generated an order and IB never filled. Then MC generated the order again after the first was cancelled and IB filled. While after I went flat, IB "found" the original order it could not find before (I can tell from the ID number used) and executed the order. So to leave IB at this stage, I'm not overly concerned about. Perhaps it is a blessing.

Anyways, any feedback on PATS and or TT would be greatly appreciated. Thank You -

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby MAtricks » 29 Jan 2014

Very little experience with TT and none with PATS, but stay far away from automated trading with IB unless it's the last resort. You'll have a lot of sleepless nights...

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby tony » 29 Jan 2014

Agree with IB. Lots of great reviews but when you actually use it for Auto-Trading, forget it. Horrible platform which I was surprised at.

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby wilkinsw » 24 Feb 2014

TT API is the more widely used and more professional of the two but is far far more expensive.

Pats is also used professionally. I use it and it's very cost effective (it's actually very cheap relative to TT). However I've been suffering with quite a few bugs whilst using it on MC 8.8 and no solutions have been forthcoming. Specifically communications with Pats API frequently gets lost/frozen. Orders don't appear filled/triggered on MC and P&L freezes. So unless you're crosschecking with Jtrader or directly with your broker/risk you don't know how you're left.

If there's anyone out there who's having more favourable experiences with Pats+MC please share.

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 20 Mar 2014

Pats is also used professionally. I use it and it's very cost effective (it's actually very cheap relative to TT). However I've been suffering with quite a few bugs whilst using it on MC 8.8 and no solutions have been forthcoming. Specifically communications with Pats API frequently gets lost/frozen. Orders don't appear filled/triggered on MC and P&L freezes.
As our analysis has shown there is insufficient RAM for running such configuration (this is most likely the reason of these issues you have experienced with PATS connection).
wilkinsw, please share your results once you move to a more powerful PC with more RAM.

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby wilkinsw » 20 Mar 2014

Yes. Thanks Henry, quite right:

It would appear to be Ram related. As we speak I'm setting up my new server and will report back in a couple of weeks.

Might be worth adding here that there has been issues surrounding GTC/GTD order support through Pats which Multicharts tell me they are investigating.

Other issues include unusual behavious that are not Ram related. I say they are not Ram related as my colleague runs Multicharts and Pats and uses only about 2/3 the ram I use and he too experiences the following issues: Price ladders using Pats show some instability. Sometimes they unexpectedly blank out. The premarket bid/offers and initial opening price are not always displayed. When making these observations I run a direct comparison against my Jtrader account.

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 20 Mar 2014

Might be worth adding here that there has been issues surrounding GTC/GTD order support through Pats which Multicharts tell me they are investigating.
PATS Support is analyzing this case.
Other issues include unusual behavious that are not Ram related. I say they are not Ram related as my colleague runs Multicharts and Pats and uses only about 2/3 the ram I use and he too experiences the following issues: Price ladders using Pats show some instability. Sometimes they unexpectedly blank out. The premarket bid/offers and initial opening price are not always displayed. When making these observations I run a direct comparison against my Jtrader account.
Please ask your colleague to come to our live chat Monday-Friday 6:30 am - 3 pm EST to demonstrate this behavior remotely.

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby wilkinsw » 20 Mar 2014

Ok Henry will do.

The live demo is possible should the ladders blank out. However the premarket period behaviour will have to be done with screenshots as you'll be closed.

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby wilkinsw » 26 Mar 2014

I am now on a server and am still having issues with Patsystems through Multicharts.

My Ram is now 8Gb instead of 4Gb. The CPU power is about 5x my old computer. However, currently I only have access to a fraction of that power. Still I'm rarely exceeding 40% CPU.

Today, I experienced a hang on the Pats feed. Firstly a ladder froze. Then when I clicked on it, it caught up. However the displayed P&L remained frozen. These are the same issues I had experienced before.

Is there anyone else using Pats out there, who can share?

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby TJ » 26 Mar 2014

I am now on a server and am still having issues with Patsystems through Multicharts.
My Ram is now 8Gb instead of 4Gb. The CPU power is about 5x my old computer. However, currently I only have access to a fraction of that power. Still I'm rarely exceeding 40% CPU.
Today, I experienced a hang on the Pats feed. Firstly a ladder froze. Then when I clicked on it, it caught up. However the displayed P&L remained frozen. These are the same issues I had experienced before.
Is there anyone else using Pats out there, who can share?
Are you using a remote server?

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby wilkinsw » 26 Mar 2014

I'm accessing a server remotely. The server belongs to us but is located in another office.

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby TJ » 26 Mar 2014

I'm accessing a server remotely. The server belongs to us but is located in another office.
Is this a shared server?

What OS are you running?
What is the access software?
What kind of security is on the server?
I am speculating the hanging has to do with the sharing software and/or security software.

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby wilkinsw » 26 Mar 2014

It's shared but I'm the only one currently system trading on it (it's brand new).

Windows 2012 R2.
Accessed via RDP (intranet or VPN).
I won't go into details over security but the network is firewalled, the server's security is best described as minimal.
Regarding the network, there are about 50 high frequency scalpers using TT/STS who rarely complain about speed or slowdowns. I can see that my Jtrader runs smoothly with P&L refresh rates that look much faster than MC's.

I could trial taking up more of the server (CPU) and see if that fixes it??? For comparison I can run Jtrader on my 5 year old home laptop and it works as smoothly as on my faster office computers.

I'm wondering if my colleague and I might be the only ones actively using MC+Pats, hence the lack of shared experiences.

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby wilkinsw » 26 Mar 2014

If i were to hazard a guess (just a guess).....

I'm wondering if MC can't handle the high rate of refresh of my Pats feed?? Clutching at straws. But I get 10 refreshes per second across 5 ladders with market depth. Instead of maybe slowing down and skipping price action (on the ladder), it's like it buffers it and then will try to catch up, which looks like price action fast forward. Not an issue with Jtrader. Even if I have Jtrader running on the same computer/server.

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby TJ » 26 Mar 2014

If i were to hazard a guess (just a guess).....
I'm wondering if MC can't handle the high rate of refresh of my Pats feed?? Clutching at straws. But I get 10 refreshes per second across 5 ladders with market depth. Instead of maybe slowing down and skipping price action (on the ladder), it's like it buffers it and then will try to catch up, which looks like price action fast forward. Not an issue with Jtrader. Even if I have Jtrader running on the same computer/server.
If there are more quotes than MultiCharts (or your computer) can handle, you will see a red status at the bottom right corner of your screen.

The quotes are queued FIFO, it shouldn't hang the computer.

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Henry MultiСharts
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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 26 Mar 2014

wilkinsw, I've sent you a module for logging this behavior.

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby wilkinsw » 29 Mar 2014

Just to keep this thread up to date:

Logs have been collected and there does appear to be an issue with the Patsystems wrapper.

I'm informed that MC are now communicating with Patsystems to resolve the issue.

In summary the issues that my colleague and I have experienced with the MC:Pats solution (on 3 different computers in 2 different locations):

-Ladders losing the feed and greying out

-Slowdowns and freezes

-Orders not appearing on the MC GUI or falsely remaining worked when actually filled

-P&L incorrect (freezes or massively lags)

-submitted GTC/D orders being submitted as DAY orders

The purpose of this post is not to blame anyone as I honestly don't know who is to blame. Instead it is to serve as an advisory to anyone considering using Patsystems through MC. Ie if you don't have to use Pats then don't at this stage until these issues are resolved.

I have to use Pats currently as my prop firm use Marex as their clearers which mean my choices (when using MC) are Pats or TT. One day (hopefully) I'll switch to TT but currently it's about 25x more expensive than Pats and not viable at my current scale.

If there is anyone using Pats with MC with or without difficulties I would love to hear from you.

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby hilbert » 06 Oct 2014

In summary the issues that my colleague and I have experienced with the MC:Pats solution (on 3 different computers in 2 different locations):

-Ladders losing the feed and greying out

-Slowdowns and freezes

-Orders not appearing on the MC GUI or falsely remaining worked when actually filled

-P&L incorrect (freezes or massively lags)

-submitted GTC/D orders being submitted as DAY orders

The purpose of this post is not to blame anyone as I honestly don't know who is to blame. Instead it is to serve as an advisory to anyone considering using Patsystems through MC. Ie if you don't have to use Pats then don't at this stage until these issues are resolved.
Did you manage to make this setup stable and more importantly did you find the reason for the problem?

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby bensat » 07 Oct 2014

Did you manage to make this setup stable and more importantly did you find the reason for the problem?
I hope not to be wrong or something else, but I think someone already had a solution in trading everything on TT with MC (no Pro[?] and no API[?]) several yrs ago. If I'm not wrong he could spread orders from one MC in the network over several TT's in the same network. Very strange. Guess I saw it the first time before MC implemented it. Don't know he is still developing it or not. In one forum he was saying he could spread that to every pro trading platform and could select what orders in which market condition via MC to TT or PATS. But can't find the forum now. It was a long time ago.

I just can just post the links I've found on YT :

Vid 1 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH5ri_finsk
Vid 2 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vdLM0ESPFo

With all regards to the amount of sym's/messages/orders per sec he may found a good memory solution. Don't know, but looking good for me, depending how many years this is behind us.

Ben

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby wilkinsw » 07 Oct 2014

Hi Hilbert,

My Pats issues have improved dramatically. Don't know why. Since about May2014, I only have about 2-4 small Pats issues a week. Before this it was about 2-4 per day.

The issues I still experience are:

Frozen ladders.

Ladder slowdowns (only seems to happen with WTI Crude on some afternoons).

Sometimes these issues resolve themselves, other times I have to restart MC (and kill the Pats processes)

Re what the problem was (is), Henry could probably explain it better. Something to do with the plugin dropping Pats ("getting locked out"). MC blamed Pats and Pats blamed MC.

As far as I know, GTD/C orders are still not possible. There is still no "indicative opening price" displayed preopen.

I also use Pats less intensively now. Before I used it to run and test order book signals. This frequently resulted frozen ladders and having to restart MC.

Also some instruments don't display properly on the ladders. Some instruments might flicker on every tick. Some, instead of displaying last traded volume on a tick, will show the bid/offer size instead, which is most bizarre.

Anyway, I have 19 live charts with about 10 executions per day and on balance is fine now.

If I start doing order book stuff again, will be asking MC to address some of the issues again.

Hope that helps!



Bensat,
With all regards to the amount of sym's/messages/orders per sec he may found a good memory solution. Don't know, but looking good for me, depending how many years this is behind us.
Would you mind rephrasing your post as I don't understand it. If you're saying someone has a good solution for something (again don't understand what you're specifically referring to) I would be grateful if you would add more detail please. Those two youtube videos didn't provide the viewer with solutions/links/products.

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby bensat » 07 Oct 2014

Would you mind rephrasing your post as I don't understand it. If you're saying someone has a good solution for something (again don't understand what you're specifically referring to) I would be grateful if you would add more detail please. Those two youtube videos didn't provide the viewer with solutions/links/products.
Oh I'm sorry, just wanted to give you a view who may already had done it or may you could speak with solving your problem. You just can take the opportunity to try to contact this guy.

I'm really sorry that I might mist my previous intention.

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Re: PATS and or TT Trading System Feedback

Postby wilkinsw » 29 Jan 2015

Patsystems feedback [update!]:

The Patsystems memory leak has now been fixed by the Multicharts team.

GTD and GTC time in force functionality has also been added (in additional to DAY) for stop and limit but not stoplimit orders.

I still experience short periods of slowdowns in the Pats feed during excessive volatility. E.g. everyday at the Nymex WTI Crude close.

Thanks Henry et al!

(also, all other Pats instability issues have seemingly gone now)


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