Simtrading with live data?

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xtrader34
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Simtrading with live data?

Postby xtrader34 » 05 Mar 2014

Will Multicharts ever add a simtrading with live data feature, like many of the other packages out there? I'd like to buy this software one day but have been hesitant because it lacks many features that are available in other trading softwares on the market.

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MAtricks
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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby MAtricks » 05 Mar 2014

Sim trading with live data? What broker are you using? Live data is all I get from any demo I've used in MC.

I'm unsure what exactly you're looking for. MC is a platform- a piece of software, not a broker. Accounts are not what they do.. However, there is a native demo account feature through Rithmic

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby monexx » 06 Mar 2014

I do think he minds playback trading.

Please vote for playbacktrading request:

https://www.multicharts.com/pm/viewissue ... _no=MC-362

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby MAtricks » 06 Mar 2014

I've never understood the concept of replaying a chart... unless you're cheating :D

xtrader34
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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby xtrader34 » 06 Mar 2014

Sorry for the confusion, I have a brokerage account with live data, however when placing trades on the the DOM MC only offers real trading not simtrading, like N*T. I'm not interested in playing back a market or a market replay. I like testing my strategy or setup in real time without suffering from the losses, using real money. I'm not interested in doing a playback of a current day's session.

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MAtricks
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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby MAtricks » 06 Mar 2014

The DOM works for demo accounts and live accounts.. What brokerage do you use?

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Henry MultiСharts
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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 06 Mar 2014

xtrader34, that is possible to open a demo account with one of the supported brokers to perform simulated trading using a broker connection. The only prebuilt simulator we have at the moment is for Rithmic feed. If you have Rithmic data then you can use Rithmic local sim to simulate trading.
We are going to implement a prebuilt simulation mode for the other supported data providers in one of the future versions of MultiCharts. There is no ETA for this feature yet.

xtrader34
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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby xtrader34 » 06 Mar 2014

My brokerage is AMP trading and I'm currently using NT. However would like to use MC because I'm used to easy-language coding. NT is a pain when coding and the coding is five time longer/larger to do as compared to easy-language coding.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby MAtricks » 07 Mar 2014

Amp with CQG? Great.. Load up a chart, change the broker selection to your demo account, and trade away.

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arnie
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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby arnie » 07 Mar 2014

I've never understood the concept of replaying a chart... unless you're cheating :D
Replay a chart is one of the best tools MC has although not allowing yet to also replay the volume profile and footprint is really a pain for me.

By replaying the trading day you can sometimes pick a couple of things you've missied during the session.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby monexx » 07 Mar 2014

xtrader34, that is possible to open a demo account with one of the supported brokers to perform simulated trading using a broker connection. The only prebuilt simulator we have at the moment is for Rithmic feed. If you have Rithmic data then you can use Rithmic local sim to simulate trading.
We are going to implement a prebuilt simulation mode for the other supported data providers in one of the future versions of MultiCharts. There is no ETA for this feature yet.
Hello Henry,
Is it possible to sent simulated manual orders during data playback in Rithmic local sim mode ?

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MAtricks
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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby MAtricks » 07 Mar 2014

I've never understood the concept of replaying a chart... unless you're cheating :D
Replay a chart is one of the best tools MC has although not allowing yet to also replay the volume profile and footprint is really a pain for me.

By replaying the trading day you can sometimes pick a couple of things you've missied during the session.
Funny, I don't think it benefits the platform at all. :)

Do we not get the same data much quicker by loading the historical chart at the end of the day and browsing over the data? The result is essentially the same.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby arnie » 07 Mar 2014

Funny, I don't think it benefits the platform at all. :)

Do we not get the same data much quicker by loading the historical chart at the end of the day and browsing over the data? The result is essentially the same.
Well, why do we bother making videos of our children while... they build a sand castle on the beach? Why not just take a picture to show the final result?
The video allow us to replay, to review that day all over again. See all the detais that we no longer remember and a still picture will not be able to show us.

One thing is looking at a chart and see what the day did.
Another thing is to replay it, tick by tick, how prices reacted when they touched that level and IF THE PROFILE/FOOTPRINT WAS ALREADY AVAILABLE, how volume was traded around that level?

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby MAtricks » 07 Mar 2014

I still don't see it :) all that data is available in historical data (where the replay comes from).

I'm always for a friendly debate though!

A picture doesn't have 2 data axis' which show us what happened during each tick and minute that passed by. Our charts do.

Data that has already loaded on a chart is the exact same as replaying it tick by tick. Every bit of data is available within the historical charts... (again which is where the replay comes from)

Build a strategy and run a back-test on today's data. Now, forward test that same strategy on the replay of today's data. No matter how complex the strategy is, the result will always exactly the same. (as long as it was built correctly)

Having said all that, I'm glad that the feature is used.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby JoshM » 08 Mar 2014

Replay a chart is one of the best tools MC has although not allowing yet to also replay the volume profile and footprint is really a pain for me.

By replaying the trading day you can sometimes pick a couple of things you've missied during the session.
Wouldn't replaying a chart after the trading session give a false sense of 'tradeability'? I mean, what if a burst of ticks happen quickly after another (which would not be tradeable for a discretionary trader), but in the replay mode, with 10 ticks per second replay speed, it looks like a great opportunity.

Anyway, what I wanted to ask, can a volume profile/footprint indicator not be made, and then replayed on the historical tick data? Just wondering. :)

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arnie
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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby arnie » 08 Mar 2014

Wouldn't replaying a chart after the trading session give a false sense of 'tradeability'? I mean, what if a burst of ticks happen quickly after another (which would not be tradeable for a discretionary trader), but in the replay mode, with 10 ticks per second replay speed, it looks like a great opportunity.

Anyway, what I wanted to ask, can a volume profile/footprint indicator not be made, and then replayed on the historical tick data? Just wondering. :)

I didn't know we had so many skeptical people around here ;)

Wouldn't that be dependable of what you want to see on a replay?

I want to be able to replay prices and volume at my areas of interest. I couldn't care less at what happened outside my areas of interest. I want to see how excess was formed during my 30min period, how volume traded at those areas. I want to see how prices were accepted during my 30min period, how volume traded at those areas.

Fortunately each of us has its own way of understanding the markets and Multicharts has been a great partner in developing tools for discretionary traders.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby JoshM » 08 Mar 2014

I didn't know we had so many skeptical people around here ;)
The motivation behind my message was the second part of my post (which was ironically overlooked), while the first part was intended to highlight something, by the means of a rhetorical question, that MultiCharts might include when a more advanced replay/simtrading engine is build (like the one mentioned here).

Skeptical? Perhaps, but intended in a constructive manner. :)

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby arnie » 09 Mar 2014

The motivation behind my message was the second part of my post (which was ironically overlooked)
I didn't overlooked it but rather didn't understand it.
Sorry about that. I though I had asked for you to better explain the question :(
MultiCharts might include when a more advanced replay/simtrading engine is build (like the one mentioned here).

Question is how will the simtrading engine work.
Will it read MC database directly, which will basically be a replay option enhanced with trading capabilities or wil it be separate module with its own database?
There's a broker that have built in on its platform a simtrading engine. They basically have an option that saves a specific day of trading data and then that saved data will be used for the simtrading. This tells me that we might be facing two different databases, one that feeds MC and the other that feeds the simtrading engine.
If this is true, replay and simtrading will be complete different tools, each with its own purpose but both with identical options.

Perhaps, but intended in a constructive manner. :)
Let me assure you that I did not think otherwise

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Henry MultiСharts
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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 11 Mar 2014

Hello Henry,
Is it possible to sent simulated manual orders during data playback in Rithmic local sim mode ?
Hello monexx,

There is no playback trading in MultiCharts at the moment.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby monexx » 15 Mar 2014

It would be great if simtrading had the opportunity to accelerate and slow down of replaying data.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby Fabrice » 15 Mar 2014

I also think that it is a great feature to simulate trading on live data. IB users can use the simulation account, and this is what I do. I really appreciate it but I believe that feature should benefit to all MC users without relying on the broker.

I would have no interest in simulation trading with data replay, but I may miss something.

Regards.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby JoshM » 16 Mar 2014

I also think that it is a great feature to simulate trading on live data. IB users can use the simulation account, and this is what I do. I really appreciate it but I believe that feature should benefit to all MC users without relying on the broker.
Why would it be better if MC makes a simulation account so that the user not has to use the broker's simulation account?

If MC would include a simulated account feature, it has to make a huge number of assumptions (such as latency, order filling, broker's risk management tools), for each broker and exchange. And if any of these assumptions are off, the results on the MC simulation account are not reflective of actual results that could have been achieved, and therefore not valuable.

Furthermore, sim trading with the broker's simulation account also has the benefit of testing how MC and the strategy interfaces with the broker. From whatever point you look at it, the trader has to rely on the broker so why not do that first with a simulation account?

I think that, if MC creates simulation accounts, that's like reinventing the wheel. And with all respect to MultiCharts, but they are not exchange and broker experts, so why not use the broker's simulation account?

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby MAtricks » 16 Mar 2014

Completely agree.

Trading with a native simulation is the same as a back-test. You test the strategies fundementals and only that. -Not helpful..

Sim accounts are plentiful and extremely easy to setup. What's the issue?

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby Fabrice » 19 Mar 2014

@ JoshM, Matricks

I believe I understand what you say. But I think that for a beginner the way the order is filled is not really important. The beginner just want to place some entries and exits on the chart, even without having a broker, and see the result at the end of the day. That simulator could just use the trade price for entry and exit. Something simple, just to begin.

Regards.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby MAtricks » 19 Mar 2014

So for the beginners out there:

Go to Multicharts.com, scroll over the Multicharts drop down menu, click Brokers, and now select your broker. I have gone through the task of hunting for the "perfect" broker for you: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45346&hilit=broker+decision Don't take my word for it, but selecting the broker that fits your setup will leave you ignorant to everyone else's complaints. (a fantastic feeling after years of working on this)

This is the demo account I'd suggest for several reasons:
http://www.visionfinancialmarkets.com/f ... arts/demo/

Fill out some bs information and receive your native demo account and free Rithmic data feed.

It's that easy for almost all brokers. No actual account is ever needed for any demo account. This particular demo account IS native and will not simulate latency, slippage, or fill rate (which are probably the most important parts of testing a strategy)

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby wilkinsw » 19 Jun 2014

Hi MATricks,
This particular demo account IS native and will not simulate latency, slippage, or fill rate
I'm currently looking at simulating realtime fills etc. So are you saying that with Rithmic the fills are nowhere near realistic?

I've used TT X trader and STS before. Their fill simulators are very good indeed.

Multicharts: Would it not be simply possible to connect to a TT sim account??

Thanks!

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby JoshM » 22 Jun 2014

With regards to Vision Financial Markets, a FYI: NFA bans Vision/Ace.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 24 Jun 2014

Multicharts: Would it not be simply possible to connect to a TT sim account??
That is possible to connect to a sim TT account for placing manual/automated orders.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby tony » 22 Jul 2014

Funny, I don't think it benefits the platform at all. :)

Do we not get the same data much quicker by loading the historical chart at the end of the day and browsing over the data? The result is essentially the same.
Well, why do we bother making videos of our children while... they build a sand castle on the beach? Why not just take a picture to show the final result?
The video allow us to replay, to review that day all over again. See all the detais that we no longer remember and a still picture will not be able to show us.

One thing is looking at a chart and see what the day did.
Another thing is to replay it, tick by tick, how prices reacted when they touched that level and IF THE PROFILE/FOOTPRINT WAS ALREADY AVAILABLE, how volume was traded around that level?
I love playback mode. After each session, I playback the day to see if I can learn anything to improve the system. It allows me to think more clearly when the "fog of trading" is removed. I use it everyday and purely to analyze the system and identify future opportunities. One of my favorite features of MC.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby wilkinsw » 22 Jul 2014

Multicharts: Would it not be simply possible to connect to a TT sim account??
I recently got told by TT that this would not be possible which was dissappointing. Using their fill simulator would've been good for testing high(er) frequency ideas.....seeing if backtested assumptions play out in real time etc. Nevermind.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 23 Jul 2014

Multicharts: Would it not be simply possible to connect to a TT sim account??
I recently got told by TT that this would not be possible which was dissappointing. Using their fill simulator would've been good for testing high(er) frequency ideas.....seeing if backtested assumptions play out in real time etc. Nevermind.
That is possible to connect to a sim TT account using a fix adapter for placing manual/automated orders.
Please send us your TT contact and the exact reply you got from him to support@multicharts.com

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby wilkinsw » 05 Aug 2014

Henry,

I think I caused confusion. You're right, you can indeed connect to a broker sim account which will be useful for testing certain things.

However, I was referring to exploiting TT's simulation environment, that simulates queue position and fills, using MC.

Having spoken to TT the only way to do this is if it were possible to connect to the TT API. So you'd need TT on the same machine as MC. Currently its only possible to connect via the TT FIX adaptor, meaning that simulating realistic fills using TT+MC is not possible at the moment.

But hey, maybe that's a feature to be added at some point down the road. I know prop firms in London put candidates on these TT sims as they have a degree of trust in how they reflect live trading. If MC were to create a similar simulation environment or provide connectivity to another platform's sim (TT and STS are both good), could be big bucks when props firms start snapping up MC as an algo bolt on product.

https://forums.tradingtechnologies.com/ ... 1#post9151

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby MAtricks » 05 Aug 2014

The Rithmic Local Sim has a queue line-up - you only get filled when its your turn in the queue. You might want to give that free option a shot.. I believe that the CQG demo accounts do this as well.
Last edited by MAtricks on 05 Aug 2014, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby wilkinsw » 05 Aug 2014

The Rithmic Local Sim has a queue line-up - you only get filled when its your turn in the queue. You might want to give that free option a shot..
Trust you to rock up with all the answers!

Is that on live market data too?

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby MAtricks » 05 Aug 2014

Yessir :) -live data

- I edited my other post to say that I believe that CQG demo accounts do this as well. It might just be a new feature within MC.. I hope so!

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby wilkinsw » 05 Aug 2014

Oh right. I think I misunderstood your previous post then, as I thought you were saying that Vision+Rithmic local sim doesn't simulate fills (which I assume to mean queue position).
This particular demo account IS native and will not simulate latency, slippage, or fill rate (which are probably the most important parts of testing a strategy)

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby MAtricks » 05 Aug 2014

I believe this feature has arrived since that post. Simulating the "right" number in the queue helps a lot, but latency and slippage are always there.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby mobelby » 16 Aug 2014

MATricks, I signed up for the VIsion demo you recommended but I think you should point out to others that it (via Rithmic) has no historical intraday tick data beyond the current day.

For me, that is a no go, since I rely on tick data for all my strategies.

For that reason, I'll stick with CQG.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby tony » 16 Aug 2014

MATricks, I signed up for the VIsion demo you recommended but I think you should point out to others that it (via Rithmic) has no historical intraday tick data beyond the current day.

For me, that is a no go, since I rely on tick data for all my strategies.

For that reason, I'll stick with CQG.
I finished up a test with Vision and used IQ for data and Rithmic for the broker connection. I'm now in the process of funding an account so I can go live. I like the reliability, so far at least, of Rithmic and though I still have to pay for data ($100 per month) I'd rather do that knowing I have a reliable broker connection. Something to consider.

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby mobelby » 16 Aug 2014

I do understand your point in reference to the java app used to connect to Interactive Brokers.

That does worry me regularly when I have real money on the line

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Re: Simtrading with live data?

Postby Polly MultiCharts » 06 Feb 2024

Dear Users,

We’re happy to announce that Simulated Trading is available in MultiCharts 15 Open Beta. Now you can place trades on charts and in DOM using Level 1 and Level 2 data. Here is more info about this feature.
Find more in our blog and What's New section.


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