Phantom Trades

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Dgresens
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Phantom Trades

Postby Dgresens » 31 Aug 2015

Hello,

I've had great difficulties trading automated strategies MultiCharts via Interactive Brokers over the months/years. Most strategies I have are imported ELD's converted to PLA's and applied to MC charts. I have noticed consistently that trades that did not occur, appear when either the data is refreshed, strategy is turned off then back on, or simply automation is turned off/on - a trade may appear that was not there previously. Happens consistently in live automated trading to the point, I can't trust the systems.

TS is my data provider, symbols are all mapped correctly - everything is set up properly. Further compounding the issue, when a trade does execute, many times I get orders rejected due to an invalid TIF specified on a stop loss, even though these are day trading systems, or a stop will get rejected as the price does not conform to the minimum tick value.

All these systems trade 100% accurately in TS. I realize orders rejecting may be a function of Interactive Brokers, but maybe not. Maybe MC is calculating or sending improper information. I don't have access to all of the systems code, but many I do - if I need to alter something in the logic.

I truly am at my wits end with these issues. It occurs over multiple systems, and is most definitely NOT an isolated event. Any input/suggestions are much appreciated.

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TJ
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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby TJ » 31 Aug 2015

The following articles in Wiki might help:

Backtesting vs Live Trading
Why is Data Playback strategy performance different from Backtesting results?

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 23 Sep 2015

Hello Dgresens,

Usually “TIF unspecified” is not the reason but the result of the order reject.
You need to go to File -> New -> Order and position tracker window->Logs tab to check the rejection reason.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Leo » 24 Sep 2015

Hello Dgresens,

Usually “TIF unspecified” is not the reason but the result of the order reject.
You need to go to File -> New -> Order and position tracker window->Logs tab to check the rejection reason.
The same it happens to me. It seems that autotrading with MC via IB is totally unreliable. Is there any answer about this issue? Are MC and/or the TWS to be setup in some way? Are MC guys aware about this issue and, if yes, hat could be the solution?

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 29 Sep 2015

The same it happens to me. It seems that autotrading with MC via IB is totally unreliable. Is there any answer about this issue? Are MC and/or the TWS to be setup in some way? Are MC guys aware about this issue and, if yes, hat could be the solution?
Hello Leo,

In order to have a solution we need to know what the actual issue it. As I have already specified above - you need to go to File -> New -> Order and position tracker window->Logs tab to check the order rejection reason first.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Leo » 29 Sep 2015

Hello,

I was replying to the first post in this thread, which talks about unreliability of autotrading between MC and an IB account. Please see the first post for details.
Furthermore, I'm also talking about the same issues I'm obesrving autotrading MC vs IB in this post
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48947

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby iceman » 13 Feb 2016

I experience the same issue of trades appearing that where not there if I refresh data or turn strategy off then on again. This happens when I am just watching how a strategy runs in real time but not live trading. The difference in results are significant. eg. 1 day watching my ES system run in real time (not live traded) generated a P&L of $1050. But when I shut off and restarted system the P&L quadrupled to over $4000 USD for the day. And if this system was live traded I am sure the real results would be less than $1050 USD, since you can't assume, like MC does, that once market hits your price target that your filled.
Can anyone provide any explanation for the large variation in P&L for simply turning system off and then on again?

Thanks

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Leo » 07 Jul 2018

I'm running several trading systems on futures index and commodities, using TS as datafeed and IB as broker. Identical trading systems are run by a couple of friends on their own computers and we all use TS as datafeed. Since we are running the same systems we are able to triple-check any single order and overtime we have realized some key points:

1) different datafeed may trigger different orders, for example you may have an order if using TS as datafeed but no order if using IQFeed on the very same trading system code

2) The above may be expected even if using two high-quality datafeeds like the two above mentioned. What is not acceptable is that you may have quite frequently different orders (presence/absence of an order) even in two identical systems with same OS and datafeed. At last, one of the two orders disappear from the chart and from the backtest by relaunching MC.

We run about 20 trading systems and we have discrepancies among our systems, which as said are identical, at least a couple of time per week.
I'm sure other people here have the same issue, as also reported here and in other posts, and would like to know how they manage this situation.
Thanks

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby TJ » 07 Jul 2018

GIGO

Do you know if the data are the same?
Have you compared the databases tick by tick?

Data feed is not a precise science -- lived ticks are streamed from the exchange in real time.
In real time, what you see is what you get. Just ticks as they happened.

At the end of the day, if you re-load the data, you will get a set of time-stamped ticks from the exchange. Which might be slightly different from what you received during real time, which might cause your charts to slightly re-arrange themselves. And thus, slightly different trades in backtests.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby evdl » 07 Jul 2018

I have the same problems with trades taking in realtime and not in backtest and vice versa.

First of all there are a lot of things that can cause this.

But I remember a issue in project management (https://www.multicharts.com/pm/public/m ... ues/MC-763) where realtime collected minute data with IB is not saved by MC in the database. And when reopening MC it will backfill the minute data with historical minute data. This minute data can be different than the minute data the realtime trade used to take a position or not. This can cause mismatched between realtime and backtest.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Leo » 07 Jul 2018

GIGO

Do you know if the data are the same?
Have you compared the databases tick by tick?

Data feed is not a precise science -- lived ticks are streamed from the exchange in real time.
In real time, what you see is what you get. Just ticks as they happened.

At the end of the day, if you re-load the data, you will get a set of time-stamped ticks from the exchange. Which might be slightly different from what you received during real time, which might cause your charts to slightly re-arrange themselves. And thus, slightly different trades in backtests.
As said, we do not only experience the problem of phantom trades occuring in realtime and then disappearing in backtest, for which you gave a possible explanation and I well understand it may occur sometime. We frequently (at least once in a week or once every 5 trades) do have trades occuring in realtime on one or two of our three computers whereas the same trade is not triggered on another twin machine, i.e. same OS, same datafeed and of course same trading system running on the same future. For example yesterday I had a trade triggered on a trading system running on ES whereas my two friends did not have any trade. At the end of the day, my trade disappeared from my chart confriming that the other two computers where right.
For such a thing I don't have an explanation.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby TJ » 07 Jul 2018

GIGO

Do you know if the data are the same?
Have you compared the databases tick by tick?

Data feed is not a precise science -- lived ticks are streamed from the exchange in real time.
In real time, what you see is what you get. Just ticks as they happened.

At the end of the day, if you re-load the data, you will get a set of time-stamped ticks from the exchange. Which might be slightly different from what you received during real time, which might cause your charts to slightly re-arrange themselves. And thus, slightly different trades in backtests.
As said, we do not only experience the problem of phantom trades occuring in realtime and then disappearing in backtest, for which you gave a possible explanation and I well understand it may occur sometime. We frequently (at least once in a week or once every 5 trades) do have trades occuring in realtime on one or two of our three computers whereas the same trade is not triggered on another twin machine, i.e. same OS, same datafeed and of course same trading system running on the same future. For example yesterday I had a trade triggered on a trading system running on ES whereas my two friends did not have any trade. At the end of the day, my trade disappeared from my chart confriming that the other two computers where right.
For such a thing I don't have an explanation.

Because data feed is not an exact science.

The most important check you must do -- compare the databases to see if they are the same.

When you receive a tick from your data provider,
there are 2 issues you must know:

1. Aggregated ticks
Most dataprovider do not supply true ticks.
The so-called "tick" might represent one trade, or an aggregate of trades.
An aggregated tick is a snapshot of the market, taken every 0.2 - 0.3 second intervals. It includes all the trades executed during that time period.
Please consult your dataprovider for detail

2. Latency
If the trade happened on 10:00:00:00
It is possible that your computer can receive it on 10:00:00:01,
and your friend's computer receive it on 10:00:00:02.

The only authority is the time-stamped data provided by the exchange.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby TJ » 07 Jul 2018

For your perusal:

[FAQ] Autotrade / Backtest / Optimization
viewtopic.php?t=10811

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Zheka » 08 Jul 2018

A simple solution to this set of issues is to use IB's "True RT 5-sec bars" feed , covering all ticks in these 5 seconds.

For the cost of 250-300ms delay, you get a "cleaned" 5-sec bar (o-h-l-c) from IB's Historical data servers.

If you do not use tick bars, and the trading bar interval is longer than, say, 1-3min and your strategies are not latency sensitive, this would be a robust and practically costless solution.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby joebone » 14 Sep 2018


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Mark Brown
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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Mark Brown » 14 Sep 2018

totally agree multicharts is NOT capable of auto trading reliably at all! it's crazy how many bugs there are and i am becoming very concerned i may be stuck with TS the rest of my life.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby hughesfleming » 15 Sep 2018

@Mark Brown,

Not everyone is having problems. The issues above are specific to the data feed. While not perfect, IQFeed or eSignal are you best options for data for futures or equities. For clean filtered data, I have been happy with Barchart.com but not so much for live trading. I can't see much advantage over IB data for FX so it depends on what you trade.

Any platform using IB data would have the same issues. Zheka has explained how to use IB data properly. What you are seeing is a tradeoff that the data provider has to make, you can't please everyone. There will always be bad ticks so you can leave them like IQFeed does or you can filter them like some of the others do. The filtering is what creates the difference between the real time feed and the historical feed. In most cases a filtered feed would give you smoother back tests. The issue with IQFeed is that a bad tick can affect your algo but it does not mean that your actual trade will execute at the price indicated by the bad tick in live trading. The result of that is that back tests might not perfectly match what you see in live trading. Both options have their own issues that you have to work around.

As far as Multicharts as a platform, it is pretty amazing what it can do. My best advice to starting out with automated trading is to have your strategies coded by someone really professional and competent.....regardless of your programming background. If you can already code then great. It will just make the process that much smoother. Building profitable autotrading systems is one of the hardest things you will ever try to do so don't be overconfident.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Smoky » 15 Sep 2018

@Mark Brown,

Building profitable autotrading systems is one of the hardest things you will ever try to do so don't be overconfident.
Funny answer Hughesfleming,

who speak about winning code ?

we speak about realibility ! for exemple in my case :

i don't need, Genetic Optimization , Portfolio, backtest, multi datas serie, scanner, only one charts, one instrument, one data serie,
few indicators only only 2 orders "buy" and "sellshort" orders with 1 contract every time, difficult to do simplier !

if we speak about winning auto-trading, first you can do the best code in the word, if yours orders don't come on market you will loose !

i undestand complain about MC customers, the most important thing for a trading software is to manage brokers interface and be reliable at 100% with them !

ALL others things are commercial and marketing !

The power of multicharts is his ability to have many brokers ! if MC12 start to loose reliability with them ,
this will make nothing good for the futur and for every body ...

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby hughesfleming » 16 Sep 2018

Hi Smoky, I agree, platform stability is the most important requirement. I am not having problems at the moment trading 24/5 with IB. I have had issues in the past but they all had workarounds.

Mark mentioned a very specific problem with 100 contract trade growing to 280+ contracts overnight.. Without further explanation, I would first assume that this was a coding problem and not a platform problem.


regards,

Alex

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Mark Brown
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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Mark Brown » 10 Oct 2018

I have learned some new things about phantom trades. If you use the Symbol Mapping you will get phantom trades if placing a order on a chart.

This is very complicated, I will try and explain maybe someone else can verify or replicate my findings.

Using TS as data vendor and "symbol mapping" to Interactive Broker. Trading the IB dom no problems, however if you use chart trading or systems expect big problems. I suspect it's because of the real time streaming data of TS vs the snapshot data of IB.

There is definitely something funny going on between the syncing of two different data feeds. I have stuck with just using the IB dom to trade all orders.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby wilkinsw » 12 Oct 2018

I’m noticing no data consistency issues (intensive auto trading since 2013) using iqfeed+cqg broker.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby wilkinsw » 12 Oct 2018

I have learned some new things about phantom trades. If you use the Symbol Mapping you will get phantom trades if placing a order on a chart.

This is very complicated, I will try and explain maybe someone else can verify or replicate my findings.

Using TS as data vendor and "symbol mapping" to Interactive Broker. Trading the IB dom no problems, however if you use chart trading or systems expect big problems. I suspect it's because of the real time streaming data of TS vs the snapshot data of IB.

There is definitely something funny going on between the syncing of two different data feeds. I have stuck with just using the IB dom to trade all orders.
Have you demonstrated this to MC?

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby beck donald » 16 Oct 2018

Likely this is outside MC, direct control. I have in the past leased and used MC demo's but not a current client. I have been waiting for the day that I can automate my trading properly. At present I manual trade using OANDA's platform but really hope I can use MC to automate and therefore monitor developments in this area.

Having spent months on this issue with OANDA and some other brokers, I have found they fool around with BID and ASK. It does not matter if it is FOREX or FUTURES or STOCKS. Trade prices are similar, but not BID and ASK.

As it relates to OANDA, I have discussed the issues with the founder of the company and the current CEO and at present, the data that OANDA sends out live comes from servers that compress the data. Data compression is another term for removing ticks. They do this using proprietary algorithms. It is done to speed up the delivery of ticks. this is using what they call is the legacy or V20 protocol

The historic data comes from servers with a FIX protocol. I am told this data is not compressed and therefor all the ticks are available..

When you refresh a chart of make a new one, it pulls from the FIX server and when you trade from the V20 server.

Even live trading can produce phantom trades if you use limit orders because the price can take place on the order servers using the FIX protocol while that same price is not sent by the data servers to the chart because of compression.

A test that will show this is to open a 1 minute chart. Note the price of the close and note the price of the open. They are different most of the time.

I raised hell about it many months ago and was told a new protocol is coming in Fall, that will allow all the data streams to match and it is suppose to be a FIX protocol with all data available. Not holding my breath, we shall see if that solves the OANDA historic vs live signal issue.

Don

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby sptrader » 16 Oct 2018

I've used MC's Chart Trader with Iqfeed and IB as a broker for 10+ years and have never had a phantom trade. (not automated though).
Make sure that your computer is at a low CPU rate (<30% or so, not overloaded) or you will get delayed entries. I had that problem many months ago when an AntiVirus program (Avast) was loading down the PC and causing a lag in "Drag-N-Drop" entries on Chart Trader. I've also had workspaces that had "print" statements etc. left on by mistake, that slowed everything down causing delayed trades.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Mark Brown » 17 Oct 2018

I've used MC's Chart Trader with Iqfeed and IB as a broker for 10+ years (not automated though).

try auto trading and get back with me.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Mark Brown » 17 Oct 2018


The historic data comes from servers with a FIX protocol. I am told this data is not compressed and therefor all the ticks are available..

A test that will show this is to open a 1 minute chart. Note the price of the close and note the price of the open. They are different most of the time.

Don
back many years ago the owner of mc did a program for me that would power ts2000i with data from tt and it had no data compression. we were able to make that platform auto trade with no problems at all because we were using the data from tt to also execute trades on the tt dom. what you see is what you get type of thing.

i do not believe that mc will even be able to properly fix mixing different data and orders to make a truly auto trading work at all.

they probably should just pull that capability out of the platform and focus on something they could fix which is backfilling slowness.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby beck donald » 18 Oct 2018


The historic data comes from servers with a FIX protocol. I am told this data is not compressed and therefor all the ticks are available..

A test that will show this is to open a 1 minute chart. Note the price of the close and note the price of the open. They are different most of the time.

Don
back many years ago the owner of mc did a program for me that would power ts2000i with data from tt and it had no data compression. we were able to make that platform auto trade with no problems at all because we were using the data from tt to also execute trades on the tt dom. what you see is what you get type of thing.

i do not believe that mc will even be able to properly fix mixing different data and orders to make a truly auto trading work at all.

they probably should just pull that capability out of the platform and focus on something they could fix which is backfilling slowness.
About the only thing they could do is apply pressure to the firms to correct the problem. They could get the clients help if the problems were shared. and it became something talked about openly. The real reason the problem is allowed to continue in the first place is that the brokers have no need to fix it. Most people lose in trading and with such gross problems, adding or missing a few signals is the least of their issues. I have been trading for 35 years plus. If I had a dime for each time I was told, we have not heard anyone complain about the issue, it would be quite a sizable sum.

As it relates to FOREX NT is even worse and they are a broker/platform. They have there own historic tick data no matter if you trade with FOREX.COM or OANDA and live data comes from the broker. Couldn't believe in Forex they would even think that could pass. But no one is complaining as so it is.

Back when it was available MC created a platform for FXCM, and as it relates to the signal issue, they got that setup to work 99%.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby joebone » 28 Feb 2019

Well Svetlana has provided a possible fix for this problem for now.

I haven't tested this yet... so its unconfirmed
command.rld
https://www.multicharts.com/trading-sof ... ommandLine

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby beck donald » 28 Feb 2019

As it relates to OANDA, my contact at OANDA informed me that they are BETA testing a FIX V20 API, If it does what I had been told, it should solve the problem. However MultiCharts will need to create a new FIX V20 connection.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Zheka » 14 Feb 2020

MC14 has an new option in Preferences/Data Server to 'save real-time ticks/minute bars to the database' - exactly to address the issue.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby joebone » 14 Feb 2020

MC14 has an new option in Preferences/Data Server to 'save real-time ticks/minute bars to the database' - exactly to address the issue.
Terrific
Is it a new function?

I believe that you could save only real time or use only historical? Is there a way to save and keep them both now?

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby kelvinhui9 » 17 Feb 2020

MC14 has an new option in Preferences/Data Server to 'save real-time ticks/minute bars to the database' - exactly to address the issue.
Sounds like it will be amazing if it help solve the issue! Though I am thinking the issue of phantom signals are due to the discrepancy of real time data and back-filed data. By saving the real time data, does that means the missing ticks won't be back filed and thus there is no issue of mis-alignment ? Did I miss anything or understand the concept completely wrong?

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Zheka » 17 Feb 2020

Why don't you try and report it here if/how it actually works?

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Svetlana MultiCharts » 03 Mar 2020

kelvinhui9,
Sounds like it will be amazing if it help solve the issue! Though I am thinking the issue of phantom signals are due to the discrepancy of real time data and back-filed data. By saving the real time data, does that means the missing ticks won't be back filed and thus there is no issue of mis-alignment ? Did I miss anything or understand the concept completely wrong?
The new option in MC 14 (File -> Preferences -> Data Server Mode) allows to save minute data collected in real-time to the database. It is disabled by default.
Reload command (Ctrl + R) still requests the data from the data provider. If the data feed provides historical data different from the data collected in real-time, then the data series will change after the Reload.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby kelvinhui9 » 04 Mar 2020

kelvinhui9,
Sounds like it will be amazing if it help solve the issue! Though I am thinking the issue of phantom signals are due to the discrepancy of real time data and back-filed data. By saving the real time data, does that means the missing ticks won't be back filed and thus there is no issue of mis-alignment ? Did I miss anything or understand the concept completely wrong?
The new option in MC 14 (File -> Preferences -> Data Server Mode) allows to save minute data collected in real-time to the database. It is disabled by default.
Reload command (Ctrl + R) still requests the data from the data provider. If the data feed provides historical data different from the data collected in real-time, then the data series will change after the Reload.
So does it mean that even if I enable the option, if I reload the data, if it got historical data which is different and it will overwrite the saved real time data? Or that only happens if the option is disabled? Thank you

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby Svetlana MultiCharts » 04 Mar 2020

Reload will overwrite the saved real time data with historical data both when this option is enabled and disabled.

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Re: Phantom Trades

Postby kelvinhui9 » 04 Mar 2020

Reload will overwrite the saved real time data with historical data both when this option is enabled and disabled.
Thanks Svetlana for your clarification! So then if in this case, so how it may help with the phantom trade that others may face during the trading.. My original thought is that this help to ensure the Real time data and saved data align and thus there isn't a mismatch. However, in this case, if I reload the data, actually there can also be a mismatch in terms of the executed signal and the updated chart right? So I guess I will just have to sync that manually? Thank you!


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