Vote requied from Rithmic Traders  [SOLVED]

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Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby faraz » 01 Apr 2017

Dear Traders,

Current Multicharts versions, Historical data is not available with Rithmic data feed. That is because Rithmic R|API does not support historical data any more. Rithmic R|API+ has been released which can provide historical data and offers access to time bars, tick bars, volume bars, price range bars, server side brackets and ocos, trailing stops, etc. But my broker told me Rithmic R|API+ got extra fee $25 per month like CQG.

Issue; Rithmic wants to charge extra per month from all Multicharts Traders which use Rithmic R|API or Rithmic R|API+. Multicharts not agreed on this.

Solution;
a) Subscribe 3rd party for historical data feed like CQG $25/m, Barchart $89/m, IQfeed $144/m, esignal $152/m etc and then use data merge feature in MC and then for live trading use Rithmic data.

b) If majority Multicharts Rithmic traders agree to pay extra for Rithmic R|API+ then Multicharts can start work on Rithmic R|API+


Vote required;
Option 1: Rithmic R|API with no historical data
Option 2: Rithmic R|API+ with Historical data, OCO orders etc but with extra $25/month


My vote is for Option No.2 as sooner or later traders will demand this and once all other platform release Rithmic R|API+ then Multicharts will have no choice so why wait for others lets go for Rithmic R|API+ with full features.


Thanks
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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby Chartsurfer » 02 Apr 2017

Hello everyone,

I am really thankful that faraz brought up the R|API+ topic.

I vote for Option 2!

I would happily pay the extra 25 USD/month to have access to a server side OCO CQG alternative :)

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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby escamillo » 04 Apr 2017

The $25 fee is likely not an issue to MC as that would be a fee the broker would charge on behalf of Rithmic.
I would be curious to know:
1). Would both the regular Rithmic API and the API+ be available as options, or would it be one or the other?
2). For minute data, is there any difference between API and API+ data? Is API+ minute data delivered from the same servers as the minute API data?

I have used Rithmic and like it very much, however have switched to CQG for the purpose of back data. The broker that I use can supply with CQG or Rithmic, and if the Rithmic API+ were available on MC and it was the same minute data as the regular Rithmic API, then I would at some point in time consider switching from CQG to Rithmic. It would be nice if MC can tell us what might happen with this Rithmic API+.

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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 04 Apr 2017

Dear users,

We had to postpone adding RAPI+ support since Rithmic has not provided a flexible solution.
Rithmic is going to charge all MultiCharts users for RAPI+, even if they use RAPI.
We are sure that current RAPI users would not be satisfied with such mandatory extra fees, especially taking into account that they do not use the RAPI+ service.
We have suggested Rithmic charging the clients for the exact API they use, but so far we have not received positive response from Rithmic management on this matter.
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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 04 Apr 2017

escamillo wrote:1). Would both the regular Rithmic API and the API+ be available as options, or would it be one or the other?

Hello escamillo,

We were going to have it optional. As we have not received a flexible solution from Rithmic - we have postponed adding RAPI+ support.
escamillo wrote:2). For minute data, is there any difference between API and API+ data? Is API+ minute data delivered from the same servers as the minute API data?
RAPI provides only tick historical data for the last trading session. Minute and daily bars are built out of ticks.
RAPI+ provides historical tick and minute data. Therefore there is no guarantee that RAPI minute bars built out of ticks will match the RAPI+ historical minute bars.
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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby Chartsurfer » 05 Apr 2017

Henry,

after reading your posts regarding the R|API+ I wrote the Rithmic support the following email:

Hello,

I was using Rithmic/R|API+ with my Dorman account for a long time and
was happy with your service. In autumn last year I switched my trading
platform to Multicharts and (what I didn't know before) was surprised,
that MC doesn't support the R|API+. Because I am in need of historic
tick data for my charting I had to switch reluctantly to CQG.

This week the question about the R|API+ poped up in the Multicharts
community.

viewtopic.php?t=50632

Henry from MC declared that "they" had to postpone adding a R|API+
support since Rithmic would be charging all MC users the extra fee for
the R|API+, even if they weren't using the R|API+. MC would be waiting
for a flexible solution from Rithmic charging the clients for the exact
API they use.

I personally would like to ask you to pretty please, please, please
(with sugar on top) offer a flexible solution like the one Henry from MC
is talking about in the forum or find another solution with MC to get
the R|API+ into MC.

I would really love to get rid of CQG and switch back to your service
and the R|API+ the moment you and MC come to an agreement.

Thanks!


I recieved a same day answer from Rithmic that I quote here (with Jonathan's permission):

thanks for your note. it is always nice to come in contact with users who appreciate our work.

The declaration you report that Henry made is a bit disturbing as it is not accurate. In general Rithmic does not charge its end users, it charges its customers and Rithmic's customers are mostly FCMs and brokers. The fees that the FCMs and brokers charge their account holders is up to them. At this time it is our understanding that some charge a usage fee for use of programs that incorporate R | API+ and some do not. Among those who charge, there seems to be a range of fees.

In addition to tick bars, R | API+ provides access to time bars, volume bars, price range bars, symbol looks ups and server side brackets and OCOs and trailing stops. I see 2 solutions for MC: incorporate R | API+ (as most of the third party platforms have done) or offer 2 versions of MC – one that incorporates R | API+ and one that incorporates R | API (some third party app providers do this). As a software development firm I can understand that MC would prefer to not support 2 versions of their product. What I do not understand is why MC would choose to offer a product with limited trading capabilities and to not offer a version of their product which can deliver a superior trading experience to their users.

MC has suggested that their users will not pay usage fees and that their users do not need access to our premium features. Personally I find both statements hard to believe. Your note to me is an example of a demand for access to one of our premium features and we have plenty of users who use competitor apps that incorporate R | API+.

Hopefully MC will see the light and offer its product with R | API+ incorporated, especially as use of R | API+ begins to exceed use of R | API.

jjw


I don't know if there is a big missunderstanding, but the answer I recieved from Rithmic is not what I expected after reading your reasons to postpone adding the R|API+ support to MC.

For me all that matters is a R|API+ support for MC. And what Jonathan wrote sounds like it wouldn't be an extra fee problem for basic R|API users. Please find a solution to enable the use of the R|API+ with MC.

Thanks!

Peter
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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby faraz » 05 Apr 2017

Henry MultiСharts wrote:Rithmic is going to charge all MultiCharts users for RAPI+, even if they use RAPI.


Henry Below remarks from Rithmic, looks like you can provide both solutions RAPI and RAPI+ and the it will be on brokers to charge their clients what ever they like.


Chartsurfer wrote: In general Rithmic does not charge its end users, it charges its customers and Rithmic's customers are mostly FCMs and brokers. The fees that the FCMs and brokers charge their account holders is up to them. At this time it is our understanding that some charge a usage fee for use of programs that incorporate R | API+ and some do not.




Chartsurfer wrote: I see 2 solutions for MC: incorporate R | API+ (as most of the third party platforms have done) or offer 2 versions of MC – one that incorporates R | API+ and one that incorporates R | API (some third party app providers do this).




Rithmic provided the solution here to incorporate both APIs, if Multicharts have some concerns with RAPI+ and then it will be on FCMs and Brokers if they want to charge extra for RAPI+ or not. Please start working on RAPI+ and try to release it in Multicharts v10.1


Thanks

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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 06 Apr 2017

Dear users,

Keeping RAPI and incorporating RAPI+ in the same product (adding an option to choose the one you need) is what we originally wanted to do, but Rithmic failed to explain how to make it work. We have asked it three times, but have not received any reply so far.

We had impression that the only solution Rithmic provides is mandatory switch of all MultiCharts/.NET users to RAPI+, which we do not find acceptable and this is why we postponed integration. We are not going to force all users to switch to RAPI+ if they do not want it.

We believe it must be an option. The response posted on the forum above is the first mention of any optional solution. But since creating and maintaining two separate products is not efficient, we are still awaiting comments on the requested optional solution in a single product. If Rithmic can offer such an option we will integrate it immediately.

I hope we will find a solution that will serve best our customers.

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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby escamillo » 06 Apr 2017

faraz - than you for bringing up this subject. i feel that MC is handling it just right.
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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby faraz » 07 Apr 2017

Can any body tell me, Even if MC is able to incorporate RAPI and RAPI+ separately as they desire and find a way to skip the costs for RAPI. Even then how you can trade using RAPI which do not have historical data? Only way is to subscribe another data feed and pay them, but then question is why pay others, why not pay rithmic and get extra features as well. I say lets go for RAPI+ with full features and skip RAPI, its useless in real trading.



Peter, Could you please send email to Rithmic and ask them about these below Henry remarks. Lets see if we can find a way forward for RAPI users as well.
Keeping RAPI and incorporating RAPI+ in the same product (adding an option to choose the one you need) is what we originally wanted to do, but Rithmic failed to explain how to make it work. We have asked it three times, but have not received any reply so far.

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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby Chartsurfer » 07 Apr 2017

faraz,

regarding your question
Peter, Could you please send email to Rithmic and ask them about these below Henry remarks. Lets see if we can find a way forward for RAPI users as well.
you should know that I also forwarded the email I recieved from Rithmic (posted above) to Henry himself. I was pretty amazed that Denis Globa, the MC CEO, took the time to write me back. In his email he responded to some of Jonathan's remarks and your "Henry quote" is a short summary of Denis' answers ...

The thing is Denis sent his email to Jonathan too, so I suppose Rithmic already knows about MC's position. Keeping this in mind I would feel like a little kid between arguing parents delivering messages if I would write Jonathan again asking him the same question ... :?

IMHO is up to MC and Rithmic to figure it out like grown-ups. But I suspect they somehow hit a dead end in their communicaton.

The only thing I could note about the R|API and R|API+ in one platform is what I recall from my AgenaTrader times. In the connection setup for Rithmic there was a box you could check saying "use R|API+" followed by a comment that went something like, R|API+ would cost a little extra fee but offer much ... Since I never used the R|API and never unchecked the R|API+ I cannot say, what it would have done and if you could have saved the R|API+ fee by unchecking. When I made the switch to MC I was still able to connect via the R|API+ ... just with no historic data ...

faraz, to the first part of your last post
Can any body tell me, Even if MC is able to incorporate RAPI and RAPI+ separately as they desire and find a way to skip the costs for RAPI. Even then how you can trade using RAPI which do not have historical data? Only way is to subscribe another data feed and pay them, but then question is why pay others, why not pay rithmic and get extra features as well. I say lets go for RAPI+ with full features and skip RAPI, its useless in real trading.
We park our cars in the same garage. The lack of historic tick data was the one reason for me to drop Rithmic/MC. And you are absolutly right about the costs of an additional data feed in your starting post that will be way more than the 25,- USD for the R|API+. Btw your thoughts were mine exactly before switching to CQG as the "cheapest" way to solve the historic data problem.

Henry,
I appreciate MC's point of view to protect the R|API users from a "Rithmic brute force" change to the R|API+. But IMHO faraz really made a point regarding the usefullness of the R|API and it's limitations for trading futures ... It's just not there. Please don't get me wrong, I really like MC and coding in PL/EL. But for me MC's honourable cause feels a little like the old saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".

It would be interesting to know how many R|API users are still out there and - as faraz pointed out - how they solve the historic data problem. I know this forum is not representative, but so far no R|API user made a comment about this important topic here ... And for MC it would be even more interesting to know how many traders stayed or are staying away from MC because of the R|API limitations.

Wishing you all the best

Peter

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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby arnie » 07 Apr 2017

I don't agree with the comment that you cannot trade without historical data. It all depends what type of trading are you doing.

If MC saves the data it collects during the day, many traders might ask why are they going to pay for extra features if MC allow them to build their historical charts, even knowing all the problems that can generate, ie. losing all data when reloading it, don't connect for a week and having all that data missing from the database, etc...

Many others, prefer indeed to use an external data feed such as IQFeed or eSignal because, on one hand, it acts like a backup data in case of one of them fail. On the other hand, let's face it, IQFeed offer data that no other execution feed offers and for many traders that is their main goal for using it. So yes, it makes a lot more sense for using RAPI than RAPI+. Those traders prefer to invest that extra $25 in IQFeed because of all the extra data available, mainly, continuous contracts, adjusted and not adjusted and all the custom indices that many futures traders use.

Maybe that's why MC/Rithmic users (based on the forum reactions) are really not that interested in the RAPI+ features because they are indeed using IQFeed and have no interest in changing. There's no advantage for them since they would lose important data information that they use everyday.

But apart from the data itself, it's all about cost reduction.
I'm a CQG user because it offers all the data I need (1 year of tick data) at a cheaper price than Rithmic.
In my case, CQG charges $0.10 per side fee while Rithmic charges $0.25 per side (depending of the FCM used).
At the end of the month this makes a huge difference.

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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby faraz » 07 Apr 2017

arnie wrote:Many others, prefer indeed to use an external data feed such as IQFeed or eSignal because, on one hand, it acts like a backup data in case of one of them fail. On the other hand, let's face it, IQFeed offer data that no other execution feed offers and for many traders that is their main goal for using it. So yes, it makes a lot more sense for using RAPI than RAPI+. Those traders prefer to invest that extra $25 in IQFeed because of all the extra data available, mainly, continuous contracts, adjusted and not adjusted and all the custom indices that many futures traders use.



Question: How many such traders are?
Lets go with the voting numbers,
If RAPI traders are well in number then MC should stick with RAPI version and with for solution.
If RAPI+ traders are greater in number then no need for waiting and lets move to full feature version.


CQG traders should consider the live trading millisecond price difference all day, when comparing price with Rithmic. You could save few dollars on commission but I am sure few bad trade in a year due to delay data will be larger then your commission savings. Try to back test your strategy with strategy properties>backtesting>back testing assumptions>try both options with 1 tick limit order fill penetration and see the difference. I see these result in my live trading ever month.
Also check this video show CQG lagging;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CML8AU65P9I

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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby escamillo » 07 Apr 2017

faraz wrote: Even then how you can trade using RAPI which do not have historical data? Only way is to subscribe another data feed and pay them, but then question is why pay others, why not pay rithmic and get extra features as well. I say lets go for RAPI+ with full features and skip RAPI, its useless in real trading.


Chartsurfer wrote: But IMHO faraz really made a point regarding the usefullness of the R|API and it's limitations for trading futures ... It's just not there. Please don't get me wrong, I really like MC and coding in PL/EL. But for me MC's honourable cause feels a little like the old saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".

It would be interesting to know how many R|API users are still out there and - as faraz pointed out - how they solve the historic data problem. I know this forum is not representative, but so far no R|API user made a comment about this important topic here ... And for MC it would be even more interesting to know how many traders stayed or are staying away from MC because of the R|API limitations.


1). Rithmic has previously always been limited back data so if it was a problem for someone in the past, then why would they use it in the first place and now say it is useless for trading? Plenty of people have wanted and want the Rithmic API specifically because it is what it is.
2). Is the tick data from the Rithmic API+ the same as the tick data from the Rithmic API? It may not be.
CME changed the way it delivers tick data some time ago: [something like] in order to reduce the amount of data being disseminated, it consolidated same price trades into one tick instead of individual ticks, such that current tick data is not the same thing as historical tick data (fewer ticks now), so that a 5000 tick bar chart in past would not be the same thing today. HOWEVER, Rithmic at that time (not sure now) opted out of the new CME API so that its customers continued to get ALL ticks as it had in the past, saying something like, "our clients have spend years/decades building their tick data databases and we are not going change the way its customers receive tick data. Good on Rithmic. Presently, how do Rithmic API and API+ deliver tick data? Are they different?

Point: I believe there is more going on with this issue than to say it is in your vital interest to have the Rithmic API+ on MultiCharts or MultiCharts is failing you. You can get most or all of what you want with CQG. Probably best to not ask and expect others to give up something on Rithmic that you may not understand and to incur additional cost when you can get what you want anyway, just not from Rithmic.

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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby arnie » 07 Apr 2017

Please don't misinterpret me. I'm not arguing against RAPI+. The more options for traders to choose from the better.
I'm just taking the other side of the discussion.
For many traders using RAPI and IQFeed for instance, it might make no sense changing to RAPI+ (ie. cancel IQFeed) because they would lose in terms of available data and it would raise their monthly costs a lot more.
IQFeed costs $90 a month, RAPI+ will charge you, let's say, the $0.25 per side, per contract. Now let's say you make 10 trades a day, trading 10 contracts. If my math is correct, that's is $110 per month in Rithmic fees. If you make more trades and trade more contracts, things become a lot worse.
So, again, taking the other side of the discussion, for those using RAPI in combination with IQFeed, in terms of monthly costs and available data, it makes no sense changing to RAPI+.

And in terms of backtesting, I think it's safe to say that there's no feed out there that can beat IQFeed. No way RAPI+ have better (more reliable) data than IQFeed.

Regarding the Rithmic/CQG comparison, that is always a tricky thing to do.
2 years ago or so, when I was looking for a new broker/datafeed, I did the exact same thing, in MC put 2 Jigsaw DOM's side by side, one connected to Rithmic and the other to CQG.
I can tell you that both were identical. The split prints were identical, every tick move also identical. Sure, from time to time CQG tick lower after Rithmic, other times Rithmic tick lower after CQG but they were moving in tandem for... 99.9% of the time.

If you see a big difference in your results between CQG and Rithmic, don't think twice, change to Rithmic.
Again, I'm all in favor for good, strong, reliable and well priced datafeed.

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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby faraz » 07 Apr 2017

arnie wrote:For many traders using RAPI and IQFeed for instance, it might make no sense changing to RAPI+ (ie. cancel IQFeed) because they would lose in terms of available data and it would raise their monthly costs a lot more.
IQFeed costs $90 a month, RAPI+ will charge you, let's say, the $0.25 per side. Now let's say you make 10 trades a day, trading 10 contracts. If my math is correct, that's is $110 per month in Rithmic fees. If you make more trades and trade more contracts, things become a lot worse.
So, again, taking the other side of the discussion, for those using RAPI in combination with IQFeed, in terms of monthly costs and available data, it makes no sense changing to RAPI+.


I wish few from these many traders using RAPI and IQFeed, can share their views here.

No, We are doing this discussion to SAVE $25 / month. $0.25 per side fee is same for both RAPI and RAPI+ Please do not include it in calculation. Rithmic data feed is better then others so if some traders can not pay $25 / month extra, then they should go for cheaper solutions like CQG.

Thanks

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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders

Postby arnie » 07 Apr 2017

faraz wrote:I wish few from these many traders using RAPI and IQFeed, can share their views here.

No, We are doing this discussion to SAVE $25 / month. $0.25 per side fee is same for both RAPI and RAPI+ Please do not include it in calculation. Rithmic data feed is better then others so if some traders can not pay $25 / month extray, then they should go for cheaper solutions like CQG.

Thanks



Yes, ma bad, I forgot the RAPI has also the $0.25 fee :oops:
It really makes no sense adding those costs. Got confused between the fee per side and the monthly cost.

Nevertheless, paying $0.25 in Rithmic against $0.10 in CQG, you damn sure I'm going to the cheaper one.
At the end of the month I save a couple of hundred dollars in fees and in the end of the year a couple thousands.
If CQG gives me all the data I need there's no need for me to pay for a more expensive one.

But we are now way outside the scope of this thread, which is for MC to add RAPI+ which I do agree, giving this way more choices to their users.

Have a great weekend everybody.

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Re: Vote requied from Rithmic Traders  [SOLVED]

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 18 May 2017

MultiCharts 10.0 Release 6 builds 14349/14352 with RAPI+ support is out now!
Go to download page
The Trading Interface is selected in Rithmic data feed settings in QuoteManager. It is global and affects the data feed and all existing Rithmic broker profiles. Changes will be applied only after all platform processes are restarted.
You will need to reload your chart to get more historical data:
https://www.multicharts.com/trading-sof ... ing_Charts
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