Paper Trader loss for no apparent reason?  [SOLVED]

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Paper Trader loss for no apparent reason?

Postby trim » 05 Feb 2016

I am using MC 9.1 and AMP Futures broker plus CQG data
On the 29th January just a week ago I had an open position with a profit and stop loss in place on the SPI (APH16 instrument). The price was around 4978 when for no apparent reason Multicharts recorded a ridiculous price of 53,350 ( that is over 10x the price at the time!) . It blew my open position naturally and jumped way past my stop loss and resulted in a $1.1 MILLION loss!... see attached
AMP claim it is not their problem and suggetsed I contact Mulitcharts. AMP did indicate that I should install a "just released" beta update to Multicharts although did not say that this had some kind of fix for the problem.
So far I have had no response from Mulitcharts and wonder if I can get an answer via this forum please?
First let me add I love Multicharts platform and have had no problems in the past with either AMP nor Multicharts support, they have been terrific. I also do not know if this was caused by MC software I just want some help,in understanding the problem

My questions are..
1. What caused this?
2. Fortunately I was using simulated trading at this time however AMP claim the problem affected both the demo and live data so, what would have happenned to my liabilty for this "loss" if I had a live open position at that time?
3. Is MC aware of this and has it been fixed in this beta update?
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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby TJ » 05 Feb 2016

I am using MC 9.1 and AMP Futures broker plus CQG data
On the 29th January just a week ago I had an open position with a profit and stop loss in place on the SPI (APH16 instrument). The price was around 4978 when for no apparent reason Multicharts recorded a ridiculous price of 53,350 ( that is over 10x the price at the time!) . It blew my open position naturally and jumped way past my stop loss and resulted in a $1.1 MILLION loss!... see attached
AMP claim it is not their problem and suggetsed I contact Mulitcharts. AMP did indicate that I should install a "just released" beta update to Multicharts although did not say that this had some kind of fix for the problem.
So far I have had no response from Mulitcharts and wonder if I can get an answer via this forum please?
First let me add I love Multicharts platform and have had no problems in the past with either AMP nor Multicharts support, they have been terrific. I also do not know if this was caused by MC software I just want some help,in understanding the problem

My questions are..
1. What caused this?
2. Fortunately I was using simulated trading at this time however AMP claim the problem affected both the demo and live data so, what would have happenned to my liabilty for this "loss" if I had a live open position at that time?
3. Is MC aware of this and has it been fixed in this beta update?
MultiCharts is dumb... it can only send orders on logics that are triggered by price.

If the price is not there, nothing will happen.

ie. MultiCharts do not dictate the price.
if the quoted price at AMP did not go to 53,350, you will not see a fill of 53,350 at AMP.

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby trim » 06 Feb 2016

Thank you TJ. I presume then you are suggesting this was a CGQ data problem. Then it begs the question "how come AMP are suggesting it is a software issue?" and how come Multicharts have not immediately suggested to me that this could not be a Multicharts problem?

Anyway TJ it is very much appreciated that you have attempted to help me understand, that is all I am asking for.

cheers

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby hughesfleming » 06 Feb 2016

This problem is worth discussing. This is clearly a data problem but I am sure everyone has had this issue come up where a bad tick comes in only to disappear when you refresh the data.

I would be happy to run two data feeds if there was a way to cross check the tick before a signal was generated.

Alex

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby arnie » 06 Feb 2016

I am using MC 9.1 and AMP Futures broker plus CQG data
On the 29th January just a week ago I had an open position with a profit and stop loss in place on the SPI (APH16 instrument). The price was around 4978 when for no apparent reason Multicharts recorded a ridiculous price of 53,350 ( that is over 10x the price at the time!) . It blew my open position naturally and jumped way past my stop loss and resulted in a $1.1 MILLION loss!... see attached
AMP claim it is not their problem and suggetsed I contact Mulitcharts. AMP did indicate that I should install a "just released" beta update to Multicharts although did not say that this had some kind of fix for the problem.
So far I have had no response from Mulitcharts and wonder if I can get an answer via this forum please?
First let me add I love Multicharts platform and have had no problems in the past with either AMP nor Multicharts support, they have been terrific. I also do not know if this was caused by MC software I just want some help,in understanding the problem

My questions are..
1. What caused this?
2. Fortunately I was using simulated trading at this time however AMP claim the problem affected both the demo and live data so, what would have happenned to my liabilty for this "loss" if I had a live open position at that time?
3. Is MC aware of this and has it been fixed in this beta update?
Have you contacted MC via email or live chat?
If it was via email, that is not the preferable way for immediate assistance. You should use live chat for that. It's perfectly normal that an email might take a couple of days to be replied. One assume that its subject is not an urgent one.

That is in fact a very weird thing to happen.

Don't you love when the first thing a broker says when a problem surge is that it's not their problem? They don't even try to figure out what happened and help the client to sort it out.

That is clearly a data issue. What you need to know is if it was MC that generated the quote or it came directly from the broker. For that it would help if you had the time and sales data. That data comes directly from the broker and if that 53.350 quote is there than you would know that it came from the broker and not generated by MC.

Then there's the live and demo feeds. Are they really the same?
I don't trust demo feeds. I don't know if it comes directly from the exchange or if it goes through some type of filter in the broker servers and then sent to the clients.

In the real world, I don't see how that trade would ever be executed. If the quote does not trade in the exchange it does not exist, it cannot be executed and if it was executed the exchange would have had cancelled the order because it was clearly some type of glitch and that, would mean that the problem was coming from the exchange itself that authorized such trade to be executed.

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby trim » 06 Feb 2016

Thank you Arnie.

I sent two emails to MC and waited a week with no reply before I posted my query on this forum.
I didn't want to make it appear as though I was blaming MC, and posting my query in a forum may have been seen that I was, so I thought it was correct to email first.. I have every respect for MC support they have been very good in the past.

Your suggestion that it may be a data problem and that in the "real" world had this been a live trade, that it would most likely not have been executed by the exchange, is comforting Arnie but I really need someone to officially tell me this would be the case... and this is what I am looking for. How could I possibly trade with my live account and with confidence with this unexplained issue? The risk is too high.

I really don't know what to do. Who can help me ?

Again thank you Arnie

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby janus » 07 Feb 2016

I agree trim, the risk is too high and this must be investigated. I can't offer any suggestions other than to try and replicate it. If necessary, you should write a little loop to enter and exit using the same type of AMP execution orders. If your simulation account runs out of money then hopefully you can top it up fairly quickly to continue the retries. A long time ago I had a different problem totally unrelated to the one you are experiencing and I had to run my tests for hours before I could replicate the problem. Once I did MC was very helpful to find the cause and fix it. In your case I suggest you record to a log file the current bid and ask price of every tick with a time stamp as well as the fill prices of each order executed so you can check if the data source is in error or not. I am not familiar with AMP as I use IB but I presume it has a trade log file of its own to review.

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby trim » 07 Feb 2016

Thanks Janus

I don't know how easy that is going to be. I have been using this instrument and making many sim trades lately and this is the only time it happened. So replicating it may be too tough. I will take a look at it but I am not confident.

regards

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby TJ » 07 Feb 2016

Thank you Arnie.

I sent two emails to MC and waited a week with no reply before I posted my query on this forum.
::
What did you send to MC?

What you posted here is not much to go on. Nobody can give you any critical analysis with the limited information you gave.

What you need:

1. a screenshot of the chart
2. a snippet of the code [edit] not applicable. I thought it was an autotrade
3. a printout of time and sales
4. a printout of bid and ask

Without these information, you cannot pinpoint the source of the problem. All the discussion you make are just uneducated guesses.

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby TJ » 07 Feb 2016

You want to look for the specific point that the error occurred in your autotrade.
You have to eliminate the possible points of failure one-by-one:

1. Did the dataprovider give you a bad tick which triggered the wrong logic in your strategy?
2. Is there a MultiCharts bug which caused wrong execution?
3. Do you have bad code in your strategy? [edit] not applicable. I thought it was an autotrade
4. You said you are connected to the sim account. Is that a live sim you were doing? or a backtest sim?
if you were on live sim, who filled your order of $53,350? -- MultiCharts? or your sim broker?

From your screenshot, it looks like a stop order was triggered.
If so, then the stop order turned into a market order, and the broker filled your order at market price.
What is so difficult about this?


There are many questions needed answer, but you must provide the basics.

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby trim » 07 Feb 2016

Hi TJ

thank you for trying to help.
Much of what you ask I simply cannot supply as I do not know how to (e.g. 1. a snippet of the code
2. a printout of time and sales 3. a printout of bid and ask)

Also I can't answer such questions as...Did the dataprovider give you a bad tick which triggered the wrong logic in your strategy? or Is there a MultiCharts bug which caused wrong execution?.. How can I answer these? shouldn't these be things that AMP or MC could have helped with via their support?

However as you suggested, I have saved an image of the chart where I have attempted to answer some of what you asked for and which might be more graphically easier to understand what I was confronted with.

Thanks TJ
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MC_error2.png
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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby janus » 07 Feb 2016

Trim, I have noticed one issue with the chart you have supplied. The times in the comments do not align with the time axis on the chart. For example the 16:15:01 fill occurred sometime after 16:30 according to the time axis. Can you please explain the discrepancies?

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby TJ » 07 Feb 2016

::
shouldn't these be things that AMP or MC could have helped with via their support?
::
Thanks TJ
If they have investigated, yes, they would know.
But you should also know these facts before you lodge a complaint.

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?  [SOLVED]

Postby TJ » 07 Feb 2016

From your chart, it is obvious that the market never traded to 53,350 because the bar on the chart did not show such a high.

To investigate further, let us look at the bid/ask prices.

Go create a chart of APH16
Make it 1 tick resolution,
Under Quote Field, select "Ask".

Next, right click on the chart and select "Insert Instrument".
Add the APH16 again
but under Quote Field, select "Bid".

Now you have a chart showing you the Bid and Ask events during the said period.
You can visually inspect the chart to see if the Bid/Ask were showing unusual activities (wildly swinging in different directions).

Image


ps. I hope you have saved Bid/Ask quotes in your database. Otherwise you might not be able to make this chart.
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bid ask chart.jpg
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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby TJ » 07 Feb 2016

I am using MC 9.1 and AMP Futures broker plus CQG data
On the 29th January just a week ago I had an open position with a profit and stop loss in place on the SPI (APH16 instrument).

The price was around 4978 when for no apparent reason Multicharts recorded a ridiculous price of 53,350 ( that is over 10x the price at the time!) .
::
You have some misconception on how the market mechanism works.

FYI,

Multicharts DID NOT record a ridiculous price of 53,350 for you.

Multicharts is a software. It does not execute trades.
You can use MultiCharts to send orders to your broker, but MultiCharts does not execute trades.

Your broker executes the trade, then reports the trade confirmation to MultiCharts.

The number "53,350" came from your broker.
MultiCharts' duty is merely to display on the screen whatever trade confirmation received from your broker.


Can you see the same "53,350" trade record in your AMP Futures sim account?

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby trim » 08 Feb 2016

Trim, I have noticed one issue with the chart you have supplied. The times in the comments do not align with the time axis on the chart. For example the 16:15:01 fill occurred sometime after 16:30 according to the time axis. Can you please explain the discrepancies?

Hi Janus

I have no idea why this discrepancy exists. The dates and times I quoted have come from the Multicharts "Order and Position Tracking" report which shows the supposed "Fill" time.

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby trim » 08 Feb 2016

From your chart, it is obvious that the market never traded to 53,350 because the bar on the chart did not show such a high.

To investigate further, let us look at the bid/ask prices.

Go create a chart of APH16
Make it 1 tick resolution,
Under Quote Field, select "Ask".

Next, right click on the chart and select "Insert Instrument".
Add the APH16 again
but under Quote Field, select "Bid".

Now you have a chart showing you the Bid and Ask events during the said period.
You can visually inspect the chart to see if the Bid/Ask were showing unusual activities (wildly swinging in different directions).

Image


ps. I hope you have saved Bid/Ask quotes in your database. Otherwise you might not be able to make this chart.

Hi TJ thanks for this.
First let me correct your earlier reply in that I have not complained to MC at any point... all I am asking for is an answer. I like MC, their software and their people.

Your suggestion of creating a Bid/Ask tick chart was a great idea.. see attached. Although there are time discrepancies between the "Fill" time stamp on the Order report and the time axis on the chart I did find a strange Bid/Ask in the approx time area of the "erroneous" fill.
The odd looking Bid/Ask still doesnt show anything like the 53,350 fill, it is never the less suspicious.
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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby TJ » 08 Feb 2016

::
The odd looking Bid/Ask still doesnt show anything like the 53,350 fill, it is never the less suspicious.
Please read post #5 again.

Pay special attention to the last paragraph.

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby ABC » 08 Feb 2016

trim,

if I understand what you wrote before correctly, you had a stop in place at the broker. Then this stop was executed at the broker and MC displays the fill price for this stop on your chart.
Is this correct or did your code send an order upon a condition that got triggered upon a certain price?

If you have a stop at place for a short position at 1000 and market suddenly spikes to 10000 and you only get executed at 10000, you'd likely see the execution price of 10000 on your chart.
This is nothing MC could change, nor should it be changed - the program behaved correctly, it can't affect how your stop in place is filled. This is the job of the exchange and the broker. So the question would be for them how the price could occur that got you filled (in your case likely the one that provided the simulated environment).

It would be something different if the price never occurred at the exchange (or the datafeed) and MC executes a trade at a random price, but this doesn't appear to be the case in your situation.

Regards,
ABC

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby trim » 08 Feb 2016

::
The odd looking Bid/Ask still doesnt show anything like the 53,350 fill, it is never the less suspicious.
Please read post #5 again.

Pay special attention to the last paragraph.

Thanks TJ

Yes I read that para and while it all makes sense, I can tell you my demo account balance shows a -$1.1 million deduction and that was scary. To just hope that if this happens when I make a live real trade that the exchange will spot it an not execute the trade is a huge act of faith. I would feel a lot better if this was being repeated by the broker.

regards TJ, and I cant thank you enough for the effort you have made to help me understand all this.

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby trim » 08 Feb 2016

trim,

if I understand what you wrote before correctly, you had a stop in place at the broker. Then this stop was executed at the broker and MC displays the fill price for this stop on your chart.
Is this correct or did your code send an order upon a condition that got triggered upon a certain price?

If you have a stop at place for a short position at 1000 and market suddenly spikes to 10000 and you only get executed at 10000, you'd likely see the execution price of 10000 on your chart.
This is nothing MC could change, nor should it be changed - the program behaved correctly, it can't affect how your stop in place is filled. This is the job of the exchange and the broker. So the question would be for them how the price could occur that got you filled (in your case likely the one that provided the simulated environment).

It would be something different if the price never occurred at the exchange (or the datafeed) and MC executes a trade at a random price, but this doesn't appear to be the case in your situation.

Regards,
ABC

Hi ABC
I had a bracketed Stop Loss and Profit order in place (a OCO function) MC displayed the filled Stop signal on my chart but at the erroneous 53,350 price (i.e not the stop price I created in my bracketed order). The chart bars were just normal and showed no such price.
My Order and Position Tracker report shows the position filled at the 53,350 price and the Account report shows the -$1.1 million deduction. There has been an overwhelming effort which I am thankful of by folk on this forum to try to help me understand but the reality is that I still really don't know what happened. The most likely cause appears to be one that the broker could answer however they are not.

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby ABC » 08 Feb 2016

I had a bracketed Stop Loss and Profit order in place (a OCO function) MC displayed the filled Stop signal on my chart but at the erroneous 53,350 price (i.e not the stop price I created in my bracketed order).
Hi trim,

if the OCO was in place before and showing the correct prices, I am willing to wager that MC did behave correctly and just displayed the result of what happened at the broker. Did you contact CQG or whoever provided the simulated execution?

Regards,
ABC

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Re: A $1.1 Million loss for no apparent reason?

Postby trim » 08 Feb 2016

I had a bracketed Stop Loss and Profit order in place (a OCO function) MC displayed the filled Stop signal on my chart but at the erroneous 53,350 price (i.e not the stop price I created in my bracketed order).
Hi trim,

if the OCO was in place before and showing the correct prices, I am willing to wager that MC did behave correctly and just displayed the result of what happened at the broker. Did you contact CQG or whoever provided the simulated execution?

Regards,
ABC

Thank you ABC.
I spoke with the broker (not CQG). They didn't answer all my questions re this trade, gave no explanation for it and their only advice was to update my software to a new "beta" update . Thus the inference was clearly that they were suggesting it was a software issue.

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Re: Paper Trader loss for no apparent reason?

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 08 Feb 2016

Hello trim,

Let me clarify this situation.
According to the screenshots you have provided the stop price for the order looks ok and the order execution price, even though being over 10x current price, satisfies the Stop order execution logic. As you were using the Paper Trader broker profile, the order execution simulation was done by MultiCharts internally using the realtime ask/bid prices from your data provider. Therefore the order execution was not done by your broker and the question goes to the data provider that streamed such realtime price. Unfortunately the realtime price values are not being logged by default as this will slow down the application operation and generate gigabytes of the logs. If such behavior reappears on your end and you want to provide a proof of such price spike existence to your data vendor - you need to capture a screenshot or video demonstrating the Chart Trading bar or the Trade Bar with this price. Once you have it - you can send it to us and we will forward it to the data vendor.

Unfortunately we cannot tell what could have happened if you were using Live connection as the order execution would be done by the broker in such case. What we can tell based on this case is that the bracket orders were generated with the correct prices and the broker has accepted these orders.

I would also like to thank the members of our community that have provided sufficient help to you in this thread and provided detailed and correct explanation of this situation.

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Re: Paper Trader loss for no apparent reason?

Postby TJ » 08 Feb 2016

Incorrect diagnosis on my part:
I thought he was using a sim account at AMP, but in fact he was using the "Paper Trader Profile" of MultiCharts.

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Re: Paper Trader loss for no apparent reason?

Postby trim » 08 Feb 2016

Incorrect diagnosis on my part:
I thought he was using a sim account at AMP, but in fact he was using the "Paper Trader Profile" of MultiCharts.
Hi TJ

my "demo" account was provided to me with my setting up of an AMP trading account. The support in setting both the "real" and the "demo" accounts came from AMP. So there was never any discussion regarding "Paper Trading Profile". When you switch to the "demo" trading account the Multicharts Chart Trading menu labels the account "SIM 001". So I have only ever known the demo account as a "simulated" trading account. TJ, your very careful and detailed help in all this has no doubt helped and I finally feel it is leading to a full explanation. Henry from MC was kind enough to step in yesterday and I am hopeful this will soon lead to the finalization of my forum query.

cheers and thanks

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Re: Paper Trader loss for no apparent reason?

Postby monexx » 09 Feb 2016

Incorrect diagnosis on my part:
I thought he was using a sim account at AMP, but in fact he was using the "Paper Trader Profile" of MultiCharts.
Hello,
I use MC9.1 Release 2 , data: CQG , MC Paper Trader.
Some time ago I made a buy long of DollarIndex.
Close trade: Sell limit at real price but filled at the absurd price.
The same data source are also used for live trading.

Attached screenshots:
Attachments
PaperTrader DollarIndex.jpg
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Re: Paper Trader loss for no apparent reason?

Postby monexx » 09 Feb 2016

Incorrect diagnosis on my part:
I thought he was using a sim account at AMP, but in fact he was using the "Paper Trader Profile" of MultiCharts.
Hello,
I use MC9.1 Release 2 , data: CQG , MC Paper Trader.
Some time ago I made a buy long of DollarIndex.
Close trade: Sell limit at real price but filled at the absurd price.
The same data source are also used for live trading.

Attached screenshots:
Please note Order and Position Tracker Window.
Screenshot2:
Attachments
PaperTrader DollarIndex...jpg
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Re: Paper Trader loss for no apparent reason?

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 10 Feb 2016

Hello monexx,

Your case looks the same as trim's case, which is a data provider issue.
We are currently working with CQG on this issue.


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