Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

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Dave Masalov
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Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

Postby Dave Masalov » 29 Mar 2012

Dear MC 8.0 Beta 2 Users,

A number of issues related to how Renko bars are plotted in MC 8.0 Beta 2 has been reported. Please use the links below to download Shaper.dll modules fixing those issues for both 32 and 64 bit versions of MultiCharts. Just copy this file to MultiCharts folder and replace the old file with the same name.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26968921/Shaper.dll - 32 bit

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26968921/x64/Shaper.dll - 64 bit

Please post your feedback regarding how Renko bars are plotted in MC in this thread.

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Re: Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

Postby arnie » 29 Mar 2012

Hi Dave.

I'm afraid that the .dll didn't resolve the problem, actually things got worse now since when "Show Wick" is selected we get the result shown in the image.

I'm on MC64.
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Re: Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

Postby arnie » 29 Mar 2012

Regarding renko and how the box size is selected, I think it's preferable to use the minimum move of the underlying symbol.
So for ES we would write 4 if we wanted a 4 tick box instead of 1 which represents 4 ticks or a full point as we all know and in Euro instead of writing 0.0005 we would write 5.

Not only we avoid errors from ourselves when choosing a box size, but in terms of calculations they should be much more accurate when we use the minimum move of the underlying symbol selected in QM.

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Re: Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

Postby Dave Masalov » 30 Mar 2012

arnie wrote:Hi Dave.

I'm afraid that the .dll didn't resolve the problem, actually things got worse now since when "Show Wick" is selected we get the result shown in the image.

I'm on MC64.


Hello arnie,

Please explain what exactly do you consider incorrect on this screenshot. You may want to try to disbale Show 'Phantom' Bars option.

Regarding renko and how the box size is selected, I think it's preferable to use the minimum move of the underlying symbol.
So for ES we would write 4 if we wanted a 4 tick box instead of 1 which represents 4 ticks or a full point as we all know and in Euro instead of writing 0.0005 we would write 5.


Please submit it to PM as a feature request so other users can vote for it.

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Re: Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

Postby arnie » 30 Mar 2012

Dave Masalov wrote:
Hello arnie,

Please explain what exactly do you consider incorrect on this screenshot. You may want to try to disbale Show 'Phantom' Bars option.



?

I thought the image was quite clear.
Where are the wicks on some of the bars??? Some bars encompasses the previous bar which would mean a 2 tick box when I've select 1 tick box.

And what is "phantom bars" since I can't see any effect on the chart.

Here are 2 charts, one with the wicks and one without them.

Image

Image

See the differences?
Now lets compare with an SC chart:

Image

See the differences?
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Re: Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

Postby arnie » 30 Mar 2012

Let's go now to a 4 tick box size.
MC continues not to match with SC and IRT. Although we can see today's bars corresponding in both charts, yesterday and previous days bars are again different.

Things continue to go the wrong way when we go above 1 tick.

I remove the wicks for better view since it's clear that we have a problem there.

Image

Image

SC and IRT developers mentioned that when they started to choose the box size based on the underlying symbol minimum move instead of a simple value data became much more accurate. Have you guys thought that part of the problem might be coming from there?
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Re: Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

Postby Dave Masalov » 30 Mar 2012

Where are the wicks on some of the bars??? Some bars encompasses the previous bar which would mean a 2 tick box when I've select 1 tick box.

And what is "phantom bars" since I can't see any effect on the chart.

Here are 2 charts, one with the wicks and one without them.


arnie,

Let me explain how we have implemented wicks for renko bars.

See attached screenshots. Let's compare SC and MC charts on "renko1" screenshot. We have highlighted 3 red bars in SC and MC. Let's take the first one. In MC Open = High for this bar. Please see "renko2" screenshot showing how MC displays renko bars with wicks. Open = High bar has no wick. We have chosen this display mode to maintain studies calculation correct on renko bars.

Apparently, SC displays Open = High bar in a different way. If Open = High for the first of the three highlighted bars in SC, they display Open = High bar the same way as Open < High.

Again, we are openfor your suggestions. Please let us know if you want us to display renko bars with wicks in a different way.

Let's go now to a 4 tick box size.
MC continues not to match with SC and IRT. Although we can see today's bars corresponding in both charts, yesterday and previous days bars are again different.

Things continue to go the wrong way when we go above 1 tick.

I remove the wicks for better view since it's clear that we have a problem there.


Please plot 1 tick charts in MC and SC to make sure that they are the same 9the data is the same). If they are, please post the screenshots and highlight what renko bars exactly are not correct in MC.
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Re: Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

Postby arnie » 30 Mar 2012

Now understood what you are doing. SC has the same option, to show the "real" open versus the renko open.

So in terms of renko bar themselves, no problem here. Actually there never was any problem with renko bars when using 1 tick box. The problem I reported via email referred to using a box higher then 1 tick.

Image

Image

Now, when we compare how MC is plotting renko bars with wicks and SC renko bars with the "real" open versus renko open checked we can see how they are almost the same, since there's a couple of bars that are different. (SC chart don't have the wicks on because I forgot to checked them).

Image

Image

So SC allows us to use both ways. Which one is preferable? Well, some prefer to use the "real" open, others prefer to use the renko open. Myself I prefer to see the renko open since it's more truthful to the original renko bar. The wick only shows where prices went whereas the standard renko bar don't. The "algo" guys probably prefer to use the "real" open due to the calculations as you mentioned.

At he end you need to make it compatible to what is standard since people nowadays use more than one platform (since it's impossible for a platform to offer all imaginable tools) and it's quite problematic when the same strategy behave differently when using different platforms, but the same chart/indicators.
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Re: Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

Postby Dave Masalov » 02 Apr 2012

So SC allows us to use both ways. Which one is preferable? Well, some prefer to use the "real" open, others prefer to use the renko open. Myself I prefer to see the renko open since it's more truthful to the original renko bar. The wick only shows where prices went whereas the standard renko bar don't. The "algo" guys probably prefer to use the "real" open due to the calculations as you mentioned.

At he end you need to make it compatible to what is standard since people nowadays use more than one platform (since it's impossible for a platform to offer all imaginable tools) and it's quite problematic when the same strategy behave differently when using different platforms, but the same chart/indicators.


arnie,

Please submit it as a feature request to the Project Management so other users can vote for it.

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Re: Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

Postby arnie » 02 Apr 2012

Dave Masalov wrote:arnie,

Please submit it as a feature request to the Project Management so other users can vote for it.



Done!
https://www.multicharts.com/pm/viewissue ... _no=MC-897

Although I don't know why I need to create a PM when yourselves created the problem. It was requested in the PM page Better Renko charts (MC-501) which consists only in adding a wick to the box, that's it. No more calculations are needed. You have the normal renko bar and you add to it a wick (MC's recognize where prices were before closing the bar). I then reported a problem that was messing the bars every time we were going above 1 tick. The bars were not identical to what SC and IRT were showing. You guys confirmed the bug and came up with something that go outside the scope of Better Renko. You decided instead of using the open of the renko bar to use the "real" open of that bar giving a complete new outlook.

Now, when we choose a 1 tick renko we get a 2 tick renko since in some bars the wick is considered the open of the bar.
Like it was already said in here, SC actually have an option to plot the renko chart this way and I do agree that there should be an option for it, but this was not what was requested here.

Your first better renko version was in fact the normal renko with the addition of a wick. After the bug detection, you decided to change that - lets use the "real" open instead.

It sounds that you guys couldn't find the bug of the first version and decided to "follow the path of least resistance" which was change the concept of better renko has it known, the standard box with a wick.
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Re: Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

Postby arnie » 03 Apr 2012

Maybe this SC explanation regarding their new renko charts, since they have been enhancing this bar type, can help you guys resolving your renko issues:

...These Renko bars maintain the true Open and Close values for each bar in addition to the Renko Open and Close values. The Renko Open and Close values are the values that are used to draw the Renko bricks, while the true Open and Close values are based on the actual ticks that were used to build the bars. All four values are displayed in the Window >> Chart Values Window and the Window >> Tool Values Window.

There are several choices for the Graph Type setting in Chart >> Chart Settings when using the Renko in Ticks Bar Period Type:

CandleStick: Uses the true Open and Close values to draw the bars. The high and low are also displayed.
CandleStick Body Only: Uses the true Open and Close values to draw the bars. The high and low are not displayed.
Renko Brick: The Renko Open and Close values are used to draw the bars. The high and low are not displayed. The Candlestick bar color settings in Global Settings >> Graphics Settings apply when using this Graph Draw Type.
Renko Brick With Wicks: The Renko Open and Close values are used to draw the bars. The high and low are also displayed. The Candlestick bar color settings in Global Settings >> Graphics Settings apply when using this Graph Draw Type.

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Re: Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

Postby Dave Masalov » 04 Apr 2012

the concept of better renko has it known


Arnie, please explain it further. What definition of the better renko concept are you referring to?

This chart type is implemented differently in different trading platforms. Some of them (i.e. NT Trader) have it implemented the same way we did.

it sounds that you guys couldn't find the bug of the first version and decided to "follow the path of least resistance" which was change the concept of better renko


It is not true. We followed our road map and finished the implementation of Better Renko charts in MC the way it was planned.

Maybe this SC explanation regarding their new renko charts, since they have been enhancing this bar type, can help you guys resolving your renko issues:


I would rather name it lack of options than an issue. We do provide two of the four described options: CandleStick (Renko bars with wicks in MC) and Renko Brick (Normal Renko bars in MC).

To summarize, you want to have other two options implemented in MultiCharts as well. Is my understanding correct?

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Re: Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

Postby arnie » 04 Apr 2012

Hi Dave.

So tell me this, why did you change the way renko bars (with the wick selected) are plotted when you released this new .dll? I believe that you have a road map but I don't believe that you implemented the Better Renko the way it was planned since you changed the way renko bars are plotted. MC now plots the "real" open instead of the renko open. Again, what made you change this? This is what led me to conclude that you went for the easiest path.
I should have made a copy of the original .dll before installing this one.

I never worked with NT. I discover Multicharts when it was at version 3 and I got hooked to it, still am. Never saw the necessity to search anything else. A couple of months ago I decided to add to my strategy volume profile and delta and since you guys don't have these tools I was forced to add a second platform. First I tested SC, than IRT, stick with IRT for a while but the software is too cumbersome so moved back to SC.

Allow me to advise you to look further then NT. According to many users, NT has its own problems. Maybe you should start looking at other platforms and see what they are doing since what they doing is breaking new grounds in terms of tools and features.

I'm not saying that you should copy and add all tools from other platforms, this would be insane. I'm just saying that you guys should, when adding requested tools that are already offered by other platforms, offer all the options made available by those platforms. Specific tools, such the Better Renko, NT, apparently, is far from being a role model. The same can be said regarding CD capabilities but that is outside the scope of this thread.

To summarize, this new .dll is plotting something completely different from what initially was plotted. That's it!
This new .dll dramatically changes the way renko bars are plotted when we select the wick.

I don't want another 2 options. I want a simple thing, if we want to see the wick we select the wick and a wick is added to the box. If you guys meanwhile decided to add the "real" open, then you add an option for that. That's it.

Again, I'm only debating this because this new .dll is changing the way the renko bars are being plotted when compared with the original .dll.

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Re: Modules fixing issues with Renko bars in MC 8.0 Beta 2

Postby Dave Masalov » 17 Apr 2012

I don't want another 2 options. I want a simple thing, if we want to see the wick we select the wick and a wick is added to the box. If you guys meanwhile decided to add the "real" open, then you add an option for that.


This will be implemented in the next version of MultiCharts.


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