InteractiveBrokers charts delay in new Beta

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James C.

InteractiveBrokers charts delay in new Beta

Postby James C. » 06 Jun 2007

Hello everyone,


I am a new user and I downloaded and installed the new Multicharts-beta a while ago after finding out about Multicharts in a chat forum. I am trading with InteractiveBrokers, and am really interested to see how this program will work with real time data from IB. (I currently use esignal and SC for my charts).

However, it seems that it takes a very long time to load historical data from IB. eg to get a 2 days volume chart for the mini SP contract took around 10 mins to complete the chart. Also I noticed in Quotemanager that the downloading gets stuck at some point, ie the same Data request keeps repeating for 3-4 mins. Then suddenly it moves on to the next one and everything seems ok till it gets stuck again... Is this a bug maybe or is there something wrong with my setting (Multicharts or IB) that i don't know about?

I would appreciate any feedback on this. The chart looks nice when it finally comes up but it takes an awful lot of time (eg in SC this process is very fast). Could someone tell me what I am doing wrong?

Thank you
James

crazy_phil
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Same Problem

Postby crazy_phil » 08 Jun 2007

Using IB as feed,

I'm juste following
4 futs contracts and 4 Currencies on 4 Time frames

It takes me every morning something between 30 to 45 ' to set up..

Is this an Ib's problem, a MC problem or settings problem ?

tks for your answer
Last edited by crazy_phil on 08 Jun 2007, edited 1 time in total.

James C.

Postby James C. » 08 Jun 2007

Hello again,

I've spent a lot of time trying out different features of the Multicharts beta and there are some unique features that I really like.

However, it is interesting to see others reporting the same issue with long delays in downloading IB historical data. I know for a fact that other charting software (specifically SC and AB) have no issues downloading IB history really fast.

That means that the issue is most likely with Multicharts, or some of our settings (in the datafeed) are maybe not correct.

Can you advice us of a way to overcome this? Or is this a newly found bug that will be fixed in new beta version?

James

James C.

Postby James C. » 08 Jun 2007

Hello again,

I've spent a lot of time trying out different features of the Multicharts beta and there are some unique features that I really like.

However, it is interesting to see others reporting the same issue with long delays in downloading IB historical data. I know for a fact that other charting software (specifically SC and AB) have no issues downloading IB history really fast.

That means that the issue is most likely with Multicharts, or some of our settings (in the datafeed) are maybe not correct.

Can you advice us of a way to overcome this? Or is this a newly found bug that will be fixed in new beta version?

James

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Kate
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Re: InteractiveBrokers charts delay in new Beta

Postby Kate » 08 Jun 2007

However, it seems that it takes a very long time to load historical data from IB. eg to get a 2 days volume chart for the mini SP contract took around 10 mins to complete the chart. Also I noticed in Quotemanager that the downloading gets stuck at some point, ie the same Data request keeps repeating for 3-4 mins. Then suddenly it moves on to the next one and everything seems ok till it gets stuck again... Is this a bug maybe or is there something wrong with my setting (Multicharts or IB) that i don't know about?



James,

Currently MultiCharts displays data only when it receives all the requested data and that's why it may seem that data is loading too long. In the future we are planning to change this working logic so that MultiCharts won't wait so long but will display data by portions, so you will have a chart in a few minutes and the rest of the data will be downloaded in the background. It should have a psychological effect since the speed will remain the same but charts will appear considerably faster.

As concerns the other problem when MultiCharts gets stuck at some point and keeps repeating the same request, it is not a bug at all, repeating requests indicate IB pacing violation which happens when the number of requests sent to IB servers exceeds the permitted limit imposed by IB. When the pacing violation occurs MultiCharts waits for a few moments and repeats sending requests to IB servers.

Guest

Postby Guest » 27 Jun 2007

Kate, I disagree...

it is a problem with the way you download data from IB.

I dont get the same issues with AB..

I didnt get those issues using IRT with IB data...

We know about the Pacing violation, but one MC is PAINSTAKINGLY slow with IB data downloads.

AB breaks the data up into segments for the download, IRT maintains a Local database that it can access so you can SEE chart data while it downlaods Data from IB. YOUR SOFTWARE DOESNT.

For me, that is a dealbreaker. I have been an IRT using for some time and am looking to swithc to smoething else....CUrrently your software and AB are the 2 pkgs I am testing.. And this data thing is a PITA....

Just givning honest feedback. Thanks...

Guest

Postby Guest » 27 Jun 2007

I also have QuoteTracker. It loads charts much faster than MultiCharts; I never have to wait for more than a minute. It backfills without giving you a blank screen; it shows you a partial chart first, then go to IB to get the rest. On the quote window, it will display a message that it is getting back fill data from IB, so you know the program is doing something and has NOT crashed or gone on strike.

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Kate
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IB Charts' "delay" in the new beta

Postby Kate » 28 Jun 2007

Dear users,
Please note, that the actual time of loading data from IB into MultiCharts is in no way slower than in AB et alias. The issue is that some other programs break it up into series and plot data as it comes, but MultiCharts displays it only when the download is complete. The effect is merely psychological.

Nevertheless, as I mentioned above, in order to meet the requests of our users we are planning to reimplement the algorithm. This should happen in a couple of months in order to satisfy the needs of our customers.

Guest

Postby Guest » 29 Jun 2007

I Don't believe this is really an issue with IB.

For my case i believe MC is just slow in loading data from its local database.

I download all my data at the close of market every day. So my data is up to date.

And yet next morning.. it still takes about 20mins to load 4 workspaces with about 10 charts.

So loading from local database alone for 10 charts takes 20mins !!! this is a joke !!!

Guest

Postby Guest » 29 Jun 2007

maybe MC can implement a "Refresh" button ?

let mc load the chart from local database... if needed, the user can press the "Refresh" button and mc will go to ib to backfill the data.

Guest

Postby Guest » 30 Jun 2007

I have also used IB data with IRT and never had this kind of LAG.... And investor plays the load all the data game (unless it is in the local database) as well....(for new symbols) But nowhere near as long as multicharts.....

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Postby Kate » 02 Jul 2007

For my case i believe MC is just slow in loading data from its local database.

I download all my data at the close of market every day. So my data is up to date.

And yet next morning.. it still takes about 20mins to load 4 workspaces with about 10 charts.

So loading from local database alone for 10 charts takes 20mins !!! this is a joke !!!


We suggest you carry out an honest test. Please start MultiCharts, go to File-Preferences - Data server mode and select the offline mode so that the program should work offline.
Then try loading data from the local data base - the process should take just a few seconds.

This is clearly indicative of the fact that MultiCharts loads data from the local data base very fast. When in online mode MultiCharts simply waits till data from the server that is absent in the local DB is loaded before displaying it on the chart.

Guest

Postby Guest » 03 Jul 2007

'Fast' is relative it takes up to 10 seconds just to load a few days of 5 minute bars when realy that should be 'instant'.

I think turning MC to offline just hides the problem. MC goes to the data provider sometimes even if data is in the cache maybe? In any case if the cache has every single bar that you are trying to load then it sould not be needed to turn to offline mode?

Another example if you need to restart MC because of a bug or whatever, maybe 1 or 2 five minute bars might be missing (if you shut down and re-start right away). This is the worse scenario just to get these 1 or 2 bars takes a 'very long time'. This too should be 'instant'.

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Postby Kate » 04 Jul 2007

Guest,
You just confirmed that if you use data offline the delays are minimal. 10 seconds is appropriate for calculation of price series, indicators and plotting them. Of course it could be faster and we are working on it. However it doesn't take 20 minutes anymore as you told us before. It is a clear sign of data vendor problem. Sometimes IB doesn't give you several bars for minutes and it means that even if you missed 5 minutes of data you will wait several minutes.
You can easily monitor what MC requires in QuoteManager Even log. I assure you that MC requests needed data only.

shcheuk
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Postby shcheuk » 15 Jul 2007

I bought this software last month, Ibought it because it can plot and do analysis on bid/ask data in tick or second mode, which cannot be achieve by AB and TS. However, the quote manager of downloading data is totally unacceptable, I would consider it as a bug rather than an area of improvement. I am an intraday trader, I need tickdata in trade, bid and ask series for all the index component with the period as long as possible, Although I may not need it at the same time, I may need it for future, Esignal only store tick data for a month, so I have to download it every month, before they disappear in the Esignal Server.
Every time I have to open 10 charts to let the quote manager start download 40 stocks daily, minute and tick bid, ask data. And MC Never succeed. Next morning, none of the chart can be seen. Each Chart still have one to three data still downloading, waiting for some data which never come.
Instead of opening a chart, AB have to click on symbols one by one (stupid) in order to start the download, I can have the data (200stocks which is the Esignal limited) ready the next day. I donno the reason, they both use the same data feed, may be AB can ask again and again if some data is missing, while MC is just stand whole night and waiting. I have Neoticker, too. But it is not comparable, with a price few times highers it can schedule an automatic download with my 1300 stocks bid/ask/tick/minute data every night without opening hundreds chart or clicking thousand of buttons. It will just download the data,check any missing and store it in the harddisk automatically, it won't put all the stock data in the ram cache since it know it's current job is just download them not plot them. For the ram cache, it can specify which stock data go into the ram gradually after startup(I put 40 stocks there), so that when I open a chart, it load from ram (not harddisk), even I didn't specify it in the cache ram list, I just download it from my harddisk, since the whole market (1300stocks) data is there. while I open a chart in MC, hopefully I have opened that stock data recently or it will start download from the internet, Even I plotted that stockrecently, MC will start checking which data is missing and download them form the internet. and it always missing data even I just opened it yesterday night,u can see from the log that they still missing a lot of data.How come? Just one night? One reason is if my data provider only provide two months tick data and if you specific the period longer than that, let say, six months ago, every time when u open the chart, the quote manager will try to download the first four months of data which is always missing as the data provider simply don't have it.

How do you compare the speed difference between DDR Ram and Internet speed? M.C. will never get the download job fast enough, if it cannot completely separate the download job and plotting. Unless u downloaded and checked any missing data which I may have interested before I open it. Just like u have a presentation in the next day conference with hundreds of audience, Will u start making the powerpoint on the spot during the presentation or prepare the powerpoint the night before? Telling me that u r checking out a missing data when I am opening the chart is just like telling me u r checking out a spelling mistake in the powerpoint at ur time of presentation in font of hundreds audience.
It is wrong and it is a bug-algorithm level.

For the psychological effect, It's not just psychological effect, I have a chart with 39 data series, all the stock data will be held even one of the data in one of the stock is missing. That mean I cannot do any analysis while u checking out the missing data. Sometimes, before u get the missing data, I already finish looking at what I interested in (It may be another stock in the same graph which do not have any missing data).

"Sorry for keep u waiting, my 100 valuable audience, My partner is checking out one of a spelling mistake in the powerpoint in page....yes...page 100...And I won't start any part of my presentation before he fix it."

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 16 Jul 2007

shcheuk,
1. Could you send us your workspaces?
2. Could you send us your log file from QuoteManager?

We are working on gradual data loading, but want to see why your problem is so severe.

billco
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Re: IB Charts' "delay" in the new beta

Postby billco » 16 Jul 2007

Dear users,
Please note, that the actual time of loading data from IB into MultiCharts is in no way slower than in AB et alias. The issue is that some other programs break it up into series and plot data as it comes, but MultiCharts displays it only when the download is complete. The effect is merely psychological.

Nevertheless, as I mentioned above, in order to meet the requests of our users we are planning to reimplement the algorithm. This should happen in a couple of months in order to satisfy the needs of our customers.



With all due respect, you kind people at MultiCharts either believe we are all a bunch of dullards, and/or are in complete denial over this issue. I have used/tried most every mainstream IB compatible charting program on the market at one time or another, and none were as lagging or cumbersome at loading chart data from IB as MultiCharts is. You can continue to believe we are simply clueless, and thus, remain in denial there is indeed an issue, or you can step back, take a deep breath, and approach this issue with an open mind and actually rectify it.

Other charting programs used with IB, as mentioned, load ALL of the data in mere seconds, and not in bits and pieces as your forthcoming solution suggests. How this is accomplished, I do not know, but I do not need to be a meteorologist to understand it is raining outside. As such, I do not need to be a software engineer to understand that MultiCharts does not load data from IB in an efficient manner compared to other charting programs, regardless if you prefer to dismiss this as being psychological or not.

If the people at MultiCharts wish to ignore this issue as being relevant, then don’t let it come as a surprise when you begin to lose IB customers and continue to gain negative feedback. If you decide to give this issue the same consideration as you have with your drawing tools fiasco, I suppose another “go elsewhere if you don’t like it” typical response is in order.

Thanks for listening.

billco

Guest

Postby Guest » 16 Jul 2007

In this same thread,for Some reason I find the latest '909' version Much Worse than the older'707' version as far as downloading data.

The 909 has far more 'pacing violations' on my machine.

I'll give another peculiar phenomenon and the probable way to reproduce it.

I do not have an auto relogger 3rd party program,so on a few occassions,I forgot to reset the IB tws from 11:59 am to 11:59 pm for the auto logoff,and my machine would disconnect from IB at that time (noon) On the aforementioned days,I was away from the screen for about 4 or 5 hours and I would then reconnect to IB without shutting down MC.

I could see in the QM log that the program must have some type of algorithm that figures out an average or highest amount of 15 futures markets I was following.and it would start connecting with a few lines of quote requests and then download huge amounts of data,say 19,545 quotes for each symbol.in one swift download. How does that happen? This was the way it worked in the 777,not sure about the 909,as I was getting a bunch of pacing violations.

What continues to be strange,is that after all this,I would shut down everything and immediately reboot at a very slow period of trading,and the QM would find thousands of more quotes that it apparently missed. Why is this?

No,I do not have the logs any longer,but you should be able to reproduce yourselves-if you are not already aware.

All these traders cannot be wrong when they tell you that they have first hand knowledge about how MC handles IB data compared to other programs they use or have used.

Like the previous poster,we do not have to be auto mechanics to drive a car,but DO KNOW when something is not working right..

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 16 Jul 2007

Dear users,
We are open to listen to your comments and always use it in our decisions. However there are some statements that are completely wrong from technical point of view. For instance:
Billco,
AB uses gradual data loading as well as SC does. So this is what we are doing right now. It is a known issue that IB is slow and has pacing violation problems. It is reflected in many information sources.

Guest,

Could I have your workspace? I want to open it and double check.
Accoridng to our QA we download only missing quotes. So I want to try it myself to see if they wrong.

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Re: IB Charts' "delay" in the new beta

Postby gregorio123456 » 16 Jul 2007

If you rum quotemanager (24 hours for day)(made one reset in your computer one time for day when market is close 5 -30 min)) and change the all symbol offline to online you have all your data in seconds because is save in you hard-disk


Ze

billco
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Postby billco » 17 Jul 2007

Dear users,
We are open to listen to your comments and always use it in our decisions. However there are some statements that are completely wrong from technical point of view. For instance:
Billco,
AB uses gradual data loading as well as SC does. So this is what we are doing right now. It is a known issue that IB is slow and has pacing violation problems. It is reflected in many information sources.



First and foremost, I, and I'm sure the others here as well, have/had high hopes for MultiCharts. We want it to succeed, and any grousing on our part is not to attack your egos, but to help you help us.

With that said, in regard to my previous post, I used a poor choice of wording, which I note you took out of context as your only defense. The fact remains, every other IB compatable charting program I and others here have ever used loads the entire set of chart/s in mere seconds, not the 5-45 minutes it now takes MC to do the same task in. If the solution is to first load one days worth of data, and then another days worth a few minutes later, and so on until the chart is finally filled, the sum of the entire time of loading all the charts to entirety doesn't change. If that is indeed the case, then that would be unacceptable.

In summary, other charting programs, including the ones you mention, load and fill the entire workspace in seconds, not upwards to an hour. From a laymans point of view, techically correct or not, until MC is able to fill all available IB data onto a chart/s, either individually or the entire workspace, in the same amount of time or less than your competitors, your rhetoric that IB is the culprit is without merit. But if it is your continued stand that we ignorant minions should just believe you and not our lying eyes, so be it! :roll:

Respectfully,

b

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 17 Jul 2007

billco,
I appreciate your comments and I don't take your wording as criticism. However it is important to have technically correct statements. Otherwise it is hard to find and isolate problems.

We do believe that AB's and MultiCharts' downloading time will be close if we talk about initial data loading. It is the only fair test because after data is cached AB loads data by chunks and it is not easy to make fair comparison.
So we are going to rerun our tests. We don't have fully functional version of AB so we will use 1 minute resolution

We will request ES 1 minute data for 1 year (1440 (24 hours)*250 trading days) = about 360,000 bars.

I will post results soon...

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Postby billco » 17 Jul 2007

billco,
I appreciate your comments and I don't take your wording as criticism. However it is important to have technically correct statements. Otherwise it is hard to find and isolate problems.

We do believe that AB's and MultiCharts' downloading time will be close if we talk about initial data loading. It is the only fair test because after data is cached AB loads data by chunks and it is not easy to make fair comparison.
So we are going to rerun our tests. We don't have fully functional version of AB so we will use 1 minute resolution

We will request ES 1 minute data for 1 year (1440 (24 hours)*250 trading days) = about 360,000 bars.

I will post results soon...



For clarity, it is tick/range/volume bar charts that seem to take forever to load, at least that's been my experience. Time charts usually load much quicker. For instance, Opening a range bar chart going back just 500-1000 bars can take 5-10 minutes to establish connection, and up to 30 more minutes to load. Sometimes the chart never does load, and deleting it from the workspace and opening a new blank chart is the only fix I have found. I also notice that if I change the parimeters of a chart (not time based), the chart will sometimes stay blank trying to establish a connection. Once again, the only fix I have found is to delete the chart and create a new one.

That said, each morning when I open the program with unaltered charts that have been pooling data for weeks on end, it can take 5-10 minutes to load all the charts within the workspaces. I typically have 4-6 charts in each of 4 workspaces total, all volume capped bars.

If anyone else here is experiencing simular peculiarities and has the ability to explain it better, please chime in.

Hope this helps.

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 18 Jul 2007

Unfortunately I couldn't test tick bars in AB, but I have some information for minutes:
I requested 1 month of data in AB and MC. I couldn't figure out how to request more in AmiBorker. It is equal to 33,000 bars.
Results
AB - 0:20 seconds
MultiCharts - 0:37 seconds.

So we have some delay, but it is seconds not minutes.

Please contact us and demonstrate the tick downloading problem on helpdesk.

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Postby billco » 18 Jul 2007

Unfortunately I couldn't test tick bars in AB, but I have some information for minutes:
I requested 1 month of data in AB and MC. I couldn't figure out how to request more in AmiBorker. It is equal to 33,000 bars.
Results
AB - 0:20 seconds
MultiCharts - 0:37 seconds.

So we have some delay, but it is seconds not minutes.

Please contact us and demonstrate the tick downloading problem on helpdesk.



I loaded a YM Sep 07 2400 contract volume bar chart this morning set to 500 bars back. It took 62 minutes to load and display, no indicators.

In watching it, it hung at 76 quotes received and again at 389 quotes received with long periods of inactivity between.

I then opened QuoteTracker and loaded the same 2400 bar contract set to ALL data. 17 seconds. Note that QT only allows 10 days backfill as far as I know, so the data loaded is not equal. I will do more comparisons tonight after the market closes with equal bars looking back.

If you are so inclined, try downloading volume bars looking back 500+ bars and see what your results are. Set it to 10000 bars, you best bring a lunch! :)

Thanks.

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Postby Nick » 19 Jul 2007

Technically there are several areas which can cause MC to be slower than other programs. At one time or other these have all been problems however one or even all may or may not be fixed now. To be honest i don't pay as much attention as I used to. The key ones are -

1) Incorrectly determining that bars are needed when they are already in the cache. (it should not be necessary to go to 'local mode' MC should know what data it has got and what it needs regardless of mode and without going online). To be honest this seems better than it was.

2) Sub optimal algorithm to request bars. This needs to be as fast as possible without violating IB's pacing algorithm. I know it doesn't help that IB does not publish documentation. I think perhaps this could do with improvement.

3) Processing and storing data - hard for a user to tell. At one time MC processed pretty small 'chunks' of data at a time. You really want to request the maximum bars that won't cause a pacing violation in one hit. I reported this (requesting just 1 or 2 bars at a time) and it was improved not sure if there is room for more.

4) Retrieving data from the data base, processing it, and rasterising it on the screen. Sometimes this seems pretty slow. Opening a new 5 minute chart and requested 20 days of history from the cache (as I already had a 1 minute chart that was up and running). As the chart was new no indicators or anything to calculate this can take between 2 and 10 seconds. Now I know a couple of seconds might not seem much but it is whole orders of magnitude slower than it should be. I know that displaying data in chunks will help with online retrieval but it may well mask a more fundamental problem that exists here. If you are doing testing and code profiling you might want to look at retrieving and displaying data from disc. Some software (Tickquest spring to mind) processes tens of thousands of bars in 'no time at all'.

2&4 look like obvious candidates for improvement.

Cheers.
Nick.

shcheuk
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Postby shcheuk » 19 Jul 2007

shcheuk,
1. Could you send us your workspaces?
2. Could you send us your log file from QuoteManager?

We are working on gradual data loading, but want to see why your problem is so severe.


The problem is not the way u download the data. It is u combined ploting data and downloading data together. That mean I cannot download the data without ploting it.

Here is the siutation:

1 stock have 20000 ticks (including trade/bid/ask) per days, my data provider can backfill up to 60 days, and I have 100 stocks, future, I have interested in 20000X60X100=120,000,000 data! I have to plot 120,000,000 data if I want to store them into the harddisk.if each stock 1,200,000 data~ 70Mb It will be 70MbX100=7GB, and I only got 2GB DDR Ram.How can I plot 7GB data into a chart? No matter how good your gradual data loading method is, there will be some errors, since the system nearly hang becuase of lack of memory.

If u enable data downloading without ploting, most user will have no problem on downloading or data ploting. Here is the reason:

Although most of the user have interest in ~50-100 stocks&future, we don't need them at the same time or at the same chart. We just look at it one by one. Looking at it 2-3minutes and then go to another one. We just need MC to plot ~2 symbols X 70Mb =140Mb Data in one time.

Let say 1 symbol is 70Mb, since I cannot download all the 100 symbols data in advance because of the 70MbX100 ploting Limit, we have to download it one by one at the time when we plot it. Everytime we look at one of the stocks. It then start download 70Mb data from the internet. Even if I plotted it last week, It will start download 70MbX7days/60days=8Mb data from the internet. no matter how fast your gradual data system is, it will take at least 10 minutes to finish and then we analyze it for 2-3 minutes, click another symbol, wait another 10 minutes, :evil: Everyone then accuse ur quote maanger blaming it for its extra low speed on downloading data. Simply because then cannot see the chart in a minute.

Let said I can download the data without opening a chart. I will instruct my programme to download 1000symbolsX60daysX20000ticks data ~ 70Gb first and store them into the harddisk. Then I will schdule it to download ~ 1GB new data everynight. Every time I pick one symbol, it will load the data from the harddisk up to yesterday and then download today new data in the internet.

Your problem is if I pick one symbol, it may not be the one I picked yesterday. It will start download the data begining from the date u opened the chart last time to the current day. It may be two weeks or even one months since u last open. Then It will be 14 times or even 30 times slower.

Don't develop a scanner before u can pre-download at least 100 stock data for your scan or the scanner will stuck at the middle.
Last edited by shcheuk on 19 Jul 2007, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 19 Jul 2007

Billco,
Your test is correct and we reproduced the same issue. It is limitation of IB. You can make 60 requests during 10 minutes. 60 requests x 1440 seconds (we request 1 second data). So what you see it is inevitable. It is possible to use tricks. For instance use 5 seconds instead of 1 second as basis resolution. However it is obvious that charts will be different. We think it is better to use 1 second because it is most realistic. Price doesn't vary greatly over a second. We tried to construct data from 5 second data and it took 12 minutes. See atttached screenshot.
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Postby billco » 20 Jul 2007

Billco,
Your test is correct and we reproduced the same issue. It is limitation of IB. You can make 60 requests during 10 minutes. 60 requests x 1440 seconds (we request 1 second data). So what you see it is inevitable. It is possible to use tricks. For instance use 5 seconds instead of 1 second as basis resolution. However it is obvious that charts will be different. We think it is better to use 1 second because it is most realistic. Price doesn't vary greatly over a second. We tried to construct data from 5 second data and it took 12 minutes. See atttached screenshot.



Thanks for the input. I compared MC with Ensign and QuoteTracker on 100 bars back, and the loading was indeed within a few seconds of each other, with QT being the fastest, then Ensign, and MC being the slowest. All were bare charts based on 500 volume bars. Obviously, there is still work to be done.

That said, there still remains the issue of starting the program each morning. This morning it took 18 minutes from opening MC until all the charts were loaded, 2-4 per workspace, four workspaces total, all 24 hour volume bars. Note these are unchanged workspace/charts that I use daily that usually run from 7:00AM EST to around 6:00PM EST. Both Ensign and QT will load the charts including backfill of missed data within 3-7 seconds of opening the workspace. Therefore, I either do not have something set correctly, as pooled data is obviously not being used, or MC is not designed to automatically pull from that data on start up.

I have no problem subscribing to a fee based data service, but having tried several over the years, I have concluded that the paid for data is no better than what IB provides, not to mention most only provide a few days of tick data. Given the numerous other postings about the slow loading of non-time based charts in MC, I am open for any suggestions you or others may be able provide.

Regards,

billco

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 23 Jul 2007

Bilco,
It is not correct to compare MultiCharts with Ensign, because it is a known fact that Ensign downloads data from DTN IQ servers. They are good and return quotes quite qucikly.
Regarding QuoteTracker. Please make sure it uses 24 hours sessions. It goes without saying that it is impossible to download 39,600 quotes (11 hours of night trading* 3600 seconds per hour) for 3-7 seconds. You can double check it.

I do confirm that MultiCharts works slower than QuoteTracker, but the difference is not significant.

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Postby billco » 23 Jul 2007

Bilco,
It is not correct to compare MultiCharts with Ensign, because it is a known fact that Ensign downloads data from DTN IQ servers. They are good and return quotes quite qucikly.
Regarding QuoteTracker. Please make sure it uses 24 hours sessions. It goes without saying that it is impossible to download 39,600 quotes (11 hours of night trading* 3600 seconds per hour) for 3-7 seconds. You can double check it.

I do confirm that MultiCharts works slower than QuoteTracker, but the difference is not significant.



There is an option in Ensign to download IB only up to 20 hours. I used IB data only when making the comparison. Furthermore, I did note that the difference was slight although measurable. All charts were set to 24 hour, 100 bars back. The comparison was fair and honest.

As for MC starting time, this is and was separate from the testing information I gave. QT will indeed load up each morning in mere seconds, 24 hour charts, as will Ensign with global refresh disabled (uses pooled data to give fair comparison). MC takes 30-45 minutes to load using exact same settings. Furthermore, once started and loaded, and then doing a backfill of all charts on either QT or Ensign takes less than 30 seconds. I clearly stated the morning start times in MC were from existing charts/workspaces that pooled daily data.

It's clear those at MC refuse to acknowledge there is an issue with slow load up times. After having seen numerous complaints on this forum as well as others, and having seen the issue firsthand, I decided to chime in as well. My bad for actually thinking you were interested. :roll:

I believe I will take your co-workers advice that she gave another poster when he expressed his views regarding MC's drawing tools. "Don't like it, use Ensign." I'm already there and believe that is where I will stay. :)

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. It was a real eye opener and quite beneficial to say the least. :D

b

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Postby duwdu » 25 Jul 2007

Bilco,
It is not correct to compare MultiCharts with Ensign, because it is a known fact that Ensign downloads data from DTN IQ servers. They are good and return quotes quite qucikly.
Regarding QuoteTracker. Please make sure it uses 24 hours sessions. It goes without saying that it is impossible to download 39,600 quotes (11 hours of night trading* 3600 seconds per hour) for 3-7 seconds. You can double check it.

I do confirm that MultiCharts works slower than QuoteTracker, but the difference is not significant.



There is an option in Ensign to download IB only up to 20 hours. I used IB data only when making the comparison. Furthermore, I did note that the difference was slight although measurable. All charts were set to 24 hour, 100 bars back. The comparison was fair and honest.

As for MC starting time, this is and was separate from the testing information I gave. QT will indeed load up each morning in mere seconds, 24 hour charts, as will Ensign with global refresh disabled (uses pooled data to give fair comparison). MC takes 30-45 minutes to load using exact same settings. Furthermore, once started and loaded, and then doing a backfill of all charts on either QT or Ensign takes less than 30 seconds. I clearly stated the morning start times in MC were from existing charts/workspaces that pooled daily data.

It's clear those at MC refuse to acknowledge there is an issue with slow load up times. After having seen numerous complaints on this forum as well as others, and having seen the issue firsthand, I decided to chime in as well. My bad for actually thinking you were interested. :roll:

I believe I will take your co-workers advice that she gave another poster when he expressed his views regarding MC's drawing tools. "Don't like it, use Ensign." I'm already there and believe that is where I will stay. :)

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. It was a real eye opener and quite beneficial to say the least. :D

b

Andrew,

The various positions with MC's slowness at loading/displaying IB data as canvassed by billco and shcheuk are very, very correct. Please listen to them and address the issue appropriately, if you can. Do not even ask me to explain because I cannot express the problem half as much as they clearly have IMHO. What I can tell you for a fact is that I am also an experienced TS user, and have been with/purchased MC from about the beginning, and can attest that MC is VERY and FRUSTRATINGLY SLOW loading workspaces with IB data compared to either TS or QT.

This morning, I upgraded to 2.1.928.1050 beta (from 880.530 beta) and the story IS the same - very slow workspace load up/display performance. I am running WinXP sp2 with the latest updates and a P4 with 2GB of memory, and IB is my primary trading medium.

Don't get me wrong, there are many good and unique aspects to MC (thanks to you and the MC Team!) and for me for the time being those outweigh these IB data loading/display annoyances, and so I will stick with MC and your very good pace of development. However, fix these complaints you must -if you can. Good luck!

'Nuff said.

Duwdu

(By the way, I used to be able to log in and contribute to this forum up till a couple of months ago. Today, I was unable to log in - the system would not recognize any combination of my username and password I thought I remembered. So I had to re-register. Funny enough, the system did not say the username was already in use at any time in the immediate past. Is there a way you or any admin could restore my post count? The number is not great, but just want to keep the records right.)

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 25 Jul 2007

Bilco, Duwdu and everybody concerned,
We carefully analyzed how QuoteTracker works with IB and found stunning facts.
Environment: We just installed QT and use all default settings. We requested 1 tick bar chart. All my statements are based on our observations and could be wrong. I suggest to double check them.

First of all, yes it is fast. The most interesting question is how is this possible?

The answer was so unpredictable. They show incorrect data. If you request 1 tick bar chart QT will request minutes. It is obvious that it will be hundreds times qicker.

So they get minute bars and transform them to ticks. Example they get OHLCV= 1500 1700 1300 1600 10,000
and create 4 ticks
P:1500 V:2500
P:1700 V:2500
P:1300 V:2500
P:1600 V:2500
If they get 1 minute bar with O=C=L=H they don't transform it.

It is obvious that it is not tick data, but ultra low quality substitute which couldn't be called ticks, because ticks are first-hand and most accurate information available.
The picture demonstrating my observations is attached.

Taking into consideration the above-mentioned it is not correct to call MultiCharts slow until you have not right benchmark.

All comments are appreciated.
Attachments
qtracker - @ESU7.PNG
qtracker - @ESU7.PNG (49.2 KiB) Viewed 1871 times
Last edited by Andrew Kirillov on 25 Jul 2007, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 25 Jul 2007

P.S.
Since lots of people like QT It seems it is more important for users to have the fast data downloading rather than valid data. Do you think this is a way to go?

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Postby gregorio123456 » 25 Jul 2007

P.S.
Since lots of people like QT It seems it is more important for users to have the fast data downloading rather than valid data. Do you think this is a way to go?


No Andrew

Thanks

Ze

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Postby Guest » 25 Jul 2007

P.S.
Since lots of people like QT It seems it is more important for users to have the fast data downloading rather than valid data. Do you think this is a way to go?

I think people mention QT for reference's sake. Don't read into messages that are not there. And don't tell people to go use QT if they like QT so much. People have made a commitment to MC. They are pointing out the deficiencies, not nagging. When feedbacks fell on deaf ears, that's when feedbacks became naggings.

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Postby duwdu » 25 Jul 2007

P.S.
Since lots of people like QT It seems it is more important for users to have the fast data downloading rather than valid data. Do you think this is a way to go?

Absolutely NOT, Andrew. Thanks.

Duwdu

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Postby Guest » 25 Jul 2007

P.S.
Since lots of people like QT It seems it is more important for users to have the fast data downloading rather than valid data. Do you think this is a way to go?

no need to compare it to QT.

Every program has its problems.
QT is not perfect. I can list 10 things that are no good with QT. But that does not relieve MC's duty and responsibility to face the reality.

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Postby duwdu » 25 Jul 2007

P.S.
Since lots of people like QT It seems it is more important for users to have the fast data downloading rather than valid data. Do you think this is a way to go?

I think people mention QT for reference's sake. Don't read into messages that are not there. And don't tell people to go use QT if they like QT so much. People have made a commitment to MC. They are pointing out the deficiencies, not nagging. When feedbacks fell on deaf ears, that's when feedbacks became naggings.

Please, please, I'll call for caution here... Andrew was not pushing we users towards QT. As I read it, he was just asking whether, in the light of his own discovery, people would want MC to acquire data that way? The obvious answer to Andrew, IMHO, is a plain NO.

The fact still remains though that the eSignal and TS platforms still load/display genuine tick data very quickly. Although it is "their own" data, tssupport created excellent solutions that worked with those data on other platforms before, for example before TS went in-house, so they CAN solve the problem with IB tick data! :wink: :)

duwdu

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 25 Jul 2007

If you say MultiCharts is slow, you should understand what fast is. Until you have a standard you can't state that it is slow. Our facts speak to the contrary…
We are open to change our point of view, but we can’t change reality. If IB works slowly we can’t change anything. All we can do is to change visuazilation.

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Postby gautama2 » 25 Jul 2007

MC keep on your track.
I don't need fast and wrong workarounds.

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 25 Jul 2007

duwdu,
You understand me right.

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Postby Guest » 25 Jul 2007

If you say MultiCharts is slow, you should understand what fast is. Until you have a standard you can't state that it is slow. Our facts speak to the contrary…
We are open to change our point of view, but we can’t change reality. If IB works slowly we can’t change anything. All we can do is to change visuazilation.

that's a correct approach:

When IB is the culprit, let users know that IB is not delivering the requested data.

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 26 Jul 2007

We will plot data gradually and show IB status right on the chart in the future versions.

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Postby duwdu » 26 Jul 2007

We will plot data gradually and show IB status right on the chart in the future versions.

Andrew,

That will be a fair and welcome solution giving the circumstance and your stunning discovery. Thank you. I believe you guys ARE listening.

duwdu

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 26 Jul 2007

Thanks for your understanding.

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Postby Guest » 27 Jul 2007

Slow loading is not always due to IB.

You guys can do a test......
At the end of market close do a reload of all the symbols you keep track of to get the latest updated data from IB.

So by right if you start up MC tommorrow before market open , it should be fast since you do not need to download anything from IB right ?

Wrong !!!!!
Every morning, it still takes me up to 20mins just to load 4 workspaces with 12 charts.....

MC is just dammed slow loading from its local database....

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 27 Jul 2007

Slow loading is not always due to IB.

You guys can do a test......
At the end of market close do a reload of all the symbols you keep track of to get the latest updated data from IB.

So by right if you start up MC tommorrow before market open , it should be fast since you do not need to download anything from IB right ?

It is not right. Please read this thread carefully to understand the issue. You use 24 hours sessions and the program downloads 10 hours of night data.


Wrong !!!!!
Every morning, it still takes me up to 20mins just to load 4 workspaces with 12 charts.....
MC is just dammed slow loading from its local database....

It is incorrect. Use Offline mode to see that it takes seconds to load data from the database.

Guest

Postby Guest » 27 Jul 2007

Slow loading is not always due to IB.

You guys can do a test......
At the end of market close do a reload of all the symbols you keep track of to get the latest updated data from IB.

So by right if you start up MC tommorrow before market open , it should be fast since you do not need to download anything from IB right ?

It is not right. Please read this thread carefully to understand the issue. You use 24 hours sessions and the program downloads 10 hours of night data.


Wrong !!!!!
Every morning, it still takes me up to 20mins just to load 4 workspaces with 12 charts.....
MC is just dammed slow loading from its local database....

It is incorrect. Use Offline mode to see that it takes seconds to load data from the database.


Andrew, you are not offering a realistic example.. since your customers cannot be expected to work with offline charts whilst trading.

You should try the exact scenerio that was reported....
i.e. download the data at end of market close and see if it takes a long time to startup the next day before market open.....

If the data has been loaded the night before.... MC should not take so long to start up regardless of whether its in online or offline mode.

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 27 Jul 2007

Andrew, you are not offering a realistic example.. since your customers cannot be expected to work with offline charts whilst trading.

You should try the exact scenerio that was reported....
i.e. download the data at end of market close and see if it takes a long time to startup the next day before market open.....

If the data has been loaded the night before.... MC should not take so long to start up regardless of whether its in online or offline mode.



This is my last response to this question, because I don’t think it is necessary to explain the same thing dozens of times.


Please try to think logically.
1. If you want to make a fair test of database speed, use offline. It will allow you to see the maximum speed the database can archive. I don’t offer you to work offline. My proposal is to see standard speed and eliminate IB servers and the internet factor.

2. The program have to download 10-12 hours of night data. It leads to at least 1 pacing violation error and thus you will have to wait 10 minutes.
In order to fix it, please set regular sessions in MultiCharts and QuoteManager. It will force the program to use the data you already collected and MultiCharts will not download night data from IB.

Guest

Postby Guest » 27 Jul 2007

Andrew, you are not offering a realistic example.. since your customers cannot be expected to work with offline charts whilst trading.

You should try the exact scenerio that was reported....
i.e. download the data at end of market close and see if it takes a long time to startup the next day before market open.....

If the data has been loaded the night before.... MC should not take so long to start up regardless of whether its in online or offline mode.



This is my last response to this question, because I don’t think it is necessary to explain the same thing dozens of times.


Please try to think logically.
1. If you want to make a fair test of database speed, use offline. It will allow you to see the maximum speed the database can archive. I don’t offer you to work offline. My proposal is to see standard speed and eliminate IB servers and the internet factor.

2. The program have to download 10-12 hours of night data. It leads to at least 1 pacing violation error and thus you will have to wait 10 minutes.
In order to fix it, please set regular sessions in MultiCharts and QuoteManager. It will force the program to use the data you already collected and MultiCharts will not download night data from IB.


This is also the last time i am explaining to you since you don't seem to get it....

All the reguired data has been downloaded as of the last market close by forcing a reload on all symbols. There are no pacing violations as there should not be any need to download from IB.
Yet it is taking a long time to startup the next day before market open......

Why confuse the issue by bringing in regular sessions, when i am not refering to any globex data... i am refering to contracts like hong kong, sgx, ose.....

Maybe some users can understand the problem.. will try it and bring it up to you the next time...

Or maybe some of your other colleagues can understand this....

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 27 Jul 2007

Please understand that program seems slow only when it can't download missing data. Sometimes it can think that it should download data even if it shouldn’t.

Even if you use Asian markets where there is no overnight trading, you should check if you have 24 hours sessions set in Format Symbol>Settings.
Please set regular. After that please take a look at QuoteManager->Edit Symbol->Sessions and make sure they reflect actual sessions. If it is correct please see Tools->Exchange->Select Exchange->Edit Exchange->Time Zone.

Guest

Postby Guest » 27 Jul 2007

Please understand that program seems slow only when it can't download missing data. Sometimes it can think that it should download data even if it shouldn’t.

Even if you use Asian markets where there is no overnight trading, you should check if you have 24 hours sessions set in Format Symbol>Settings.
Please set regular. After that please take a look at QuoteManager->Edit Symbol->Sessions and make sure they reflect actual sessions. If it is correct please see Tools->Exchange->Select Exchange->Edit Exchange->Time Zone.


There are all in order. Right timezone, right session settings.

When i check the log for slow startup, it wasn't trying to download any data from IB, as i already mentioned, no pacing violations too.
But startup is just slow.

Did you try the scenerio i describe and the loading is still fast the next day ?

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 27 Jul 2007

Please do the following:
1. Start MC in the morning and wait til the charts are loaded
2. Send me the log from QuoteManager->Event log
3. Send me your workspaces

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Postby jek » 27 Jul 2007

Andrew -

Could you describe the "Save data to local database" option in QuoteManager?

Would that have the effect of caching the historical data and speed up people's startup time?

Thanks.

Guest

Postby Guest » 27 Jul 2007

Please do the following:
1. Start MC in the morning and wait til the charts are loaded
2. Send me the log from QuoteManager->Event log
3. Send me your workspaces


The scenerio is easily replicated and you can test it out yourself.

Unless you are telling me that you've tried the exact scenerio and startup is fast on your machine, then i will send you my logs and workspaces ( which i am reluctant )

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 30 Jul 2007

Andrew -

Could you describe the "Save data to local database" option in QuoteManager?

Would that have the effect of caching the historical data and speed up people's startup time?

Thanks.


This option is intended for TS data only. It slightly improves performance.

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 30 Jul 2007

Please do the following:
1. Start MC in the morning and wait til the charts are loaded
2. Send me the log from QuoteManager->Event log
3. Send me your workspaces


The scenerio is easily replicated and you can test it out yourself.

Unless you are telling me that you've tried the exact scenerio and startup is fast on your machine, then i will send you my logs and workspaces ( which i am reluctant )


It is not efficient to reproduce a bug if I’m not aware of your environment. The information you provided is not enough. Please do what I requested.

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Postby Nick » 31 Jul 2007

P.S.
Since lots of people like QT It seems it is more important for users to have the fast data downloading rather than valid data. Do you think this is a way to go?


Perhaps offering it as a choice either as a new bar type ? Just a thought.

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Postby Nick » 31 Jul 2007

Please do the following:
1. Start MC in the morning and wait til the charts are loaded
2. Send me the log from QuoteManager->Event log
3. Send me your workspaces


The scenerio is easily replicated and you can test it out yourself.

Unless you are telling me that you've tried the exact scenerio and startup is fast on your machine, then i will send you my logs and workspaces ( which i am reluctant )


It is not efficient to reproduce a bug if I’m not aware of your environment. The information you provided is not enough. Please do what I requested.


I think what the poster is trying to say is this happens pretty much under all circumstances. This is item 1) That I described a dozen or so posts before. It appears that MC is not sure that it has all the data it needs in the cache already.

It should not be necessary to 'tell' MC it has all the data it needs by switching to offline mode. It should be able to look at the data base and quickly see that there is no data missing. (as it retrieves it to put it on the chart). Put another way the speed to load from the database should be hardly any different regardless whether you are in offline mode or not if all the data is there.

Often I do not have all the data I need but I certainly have most. Often I have a bar or two missing from yesterday if I have been lazy and finished early :oops: sometimes I have a bar or two missing from toda if I over sleep :oops:. In this case starting in offline mode is not an option. Similarly if you re-start MC during the day you may miss a bar or two. In this case just getting a small amount of missing data can seem 'slow'. Let me stress offline mode is not an option as you will need a couple of 1 minute bars.

Please note this is just my interpretation of what the poster above is saying. My general observations tend to agree but for now my 'hardcore' testing days of MC are on hold. (In the past I would have examined the database to see what was there and examined the logs to see what was actually requested).

Cheers,
Nick.

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Postby Guest » 31 Jul 2007

Nick, thanks....yup it happens everyday is definitely easily replicable.....

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 31 Jul 2007

Nick,
There is misunderstanding. I don't offer to work "offline". Offline mode allows us to isolate the problem.

If you run MC most of the time you can use Online mode with "I want to download missing data" option unchecked.
In this case the program will take data from the database (almost instantly) and connect to live data.

Anyway I need workspaces to identify the problem.

guest02

Postby guest02 » 31 Jul 2007

if you want to solve the problem yourself, you can diagnose it anyway you like.
if you want mc to solve the problem, get what mc needs.
i don't see what is the point of the discussion.
this is not a philosophy class.

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 01 Aug 2007

I'm fully agreed with guest02 - we spend valuable time for discussion rather than fixing the issue. Please provide the required material.


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