RobotMan Rant - "Layers" keep changing order

Questions about MultiCharts and user contributed studies.
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RobotMan
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RobotMan Rant - "Layers" keep changing order

Postby RobotMan » 06 Mar 2009

Version 5.0 Beta 4 (Build 2106)

If you have ever tried to set a default trendline to anchor on the "close" and then try to apply it to a chart and find that it attaches to a moving average or goes completely out of sight, and no matter what you do, you can't get it to attach to anything else, then you know what I'm talking about.
If you ever look at the status line at the top of your charts and the info is out of order and even though you right click and choose: Format Window>Status Line and try and change the order of the info, then you know what I am talking about.

The Manual Fix: If you right click on the price area to the right of the chart you will see a box that kinda looks like "PriceScaleBefore" (Attached). Notice that the ES data is way down the column and even though it is checked, it is not recognized as being on the the "top" layer. The only way to fix this is to Format>Studies and turn the status off then back on for each indicator in subchart #1.
Now it will look like "PriceScaleAfter" (Attached). Now the status line will have the symbol and description at the front. Now the trendline will snap to the close of the ES data.


Marina, I recommend:

    1. When right clicking the Price column area and the box pops up, a way to select the price/indicator value that we want displayed (on the right or left side) without effecting anything else.

    2. When formatting the status line, when we "move up" or "move down" the items that we have checked, that they will actually change their order in the status line display in the chart window. Currently the "move up" and "move down" are kinda useless.

    3. When you format an object (like a trendline) and pick Properties>fixed point or regression, that you can select from anything that is on the chart: ie: H,L,C, Midpoint, typicalprice, any moving average, any channel, ANY PLOT OF ANY INDICATOR AT ALL in the same subchart without first having to mess around with right clicking on the price scale.

    4. (This might be the hardest) Keeping these settings between sessions. For some reason MC seems to forget that I set the Price scale box to look like "PriceScaleAfter". After a few sessions it looks like "PriceScaleBefore" and I have to go through the whole rigmarole again.


Thanks!
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PriceScaleAfter.jpg
PriceScaleAfter.jpg (23.08 KiB) Viewed 421 times
PriceScaleBefore.jpg
PriceScaleBefore.jpg (21.64 KiB) Viewed 429 times
Last edited by RobotMan on 09 Mar 2009, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby brodnicki steven » 07 Mar 2009

Is this problem specific to beta 4 or all versions of MC ?

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Re: RobotMan Rant - "Layers" keep changing order

Postby TJ » 07 Mar 2009

Version 5.0 Beta 4 (Build 2106)
If you have ever tried to set a default trendline to anchor on the "close" and then try to apply it to a chart and find that it attaches to a moving average or goes completely out of sight, and no matter what you do, you can't get it to attach to anything else, then you know what I'm talking about...


the is NO PROBLEM even if the trendline is anchored to the moving average.

So long as the moving average is set to:
"Format Study>Scaling>Scale Range>Same As Symbol".

it should anyway, because if it doesn't, then your moving average is not aligned to the price bars.
Last edited by TJ on 07 Mar 2009, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby TJ » 07 Mar 2009

before you click on the price scale, you should first right click on the chart to bring up the Visual Order window.

then select the symbol and send it to the back. (see attached illustration)
the symbol then becomes the bottom layer.
this is the foundation to build all trendline/indicators.




when you click on the price scale (either on the right axis or left axis), you are selecting the following:
1. item to which the numbers will appear on the scale
theoretically they should be the same. but if you have an item that is NOT scaled same as symbol, then you will have a different number.

2. on the price scale, if you left click, hold and slide the mouse up and down, you will see the selected item stretch or squeeze in scale.
Again, theoretically, if ALL the items are "scaled same as symbol", the whole chart will move together. If you have one item that is NOT scaled same as symbol, that itme will not move with the rest of the chart.


Hope the above helps.
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Postby RobotMan » 07 Mar 2009

the is NO PROBLEM even if the trendline is anchored to the moving average.

But, it is a problem. Especially if it is anchored to the wrong moving average.


So long as the moving average is set to:
"Format Study>Scaling>Scale Range>Same As Symbol".

This is always the case.


before you click on the price scale, you should first right click on the chart to bring up the Visual Order window.

The visual order does not seem to affect anything in this situation.


TJ, I appreciate the suggestions, but I have tried all these and others. I have even offered a manual fix to the problem, which would suggest that I do understand it and that it is not "operator error". It is a problem with MC. Let's wait for Marina to return next week and hopefully she will put it on the "to do" list. Or not.

Thanks!

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Postby TJ » 07 Mar 2009

the is NO PROBLEM even if the trendline is anchored to the moving average.

But, it is a problem. Especially if it is anchored to the wrong moving average.


you can anchor your trendline to whatever indicator you choose.
theoretically, if that indicator is scaled same as symbol... your trendline will always move with the symbol.

You can see the illustration I posted... it has LOTs of indicators.
I also have lots of trendline on the chart.
I have never had problem with synchronizing scaling.


Please, do me a favor, post your Visual Order.
I do not believe that if your symbol is at the layer 0, and all the indicators are scaled same as symbol, you will have problem anchoring your trendlines.

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Postby Nick » 09 Mar 2009

That is exactly the problem. MC assumes that the symbol will be on layer 0. It is quite a limitation to have to put it there. The whole point of layer ordering is to be able to bring stuff forward so it is not obscured. Price data itself is pretty important not to obscure.

Lines and stuff should anchor to the checked layer not layer 0. (right click in the y margin to check a layer). It might be 'working as intended' but then the implementation is limited (and flawed) for no good reason. Such a small thing to 'fix' Please please, change it to the ticked layer and everyone will be happy as you will still be able to tick layer 0 if you so desire.

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Postby iso » 09 Mar 2009

I agree, this should be seen as a problem.

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Postby Nick » 11 Mar 2009

Let me post an example from another forum

Here the high low plot type is set to the widest plot to simulate a shaded range. (when will MC have shaded ranges btw?)?)

Obviously the data series absolutely must go on top in this scenario.
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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 11 Mar 2009

I want thank everybody for the discussion. I tried to draw a trend line in a snap mode with a data stream on the foreground. It is more obvious for me that the current behavior is not good.

We will change it in the next beta and I want to confirm that the following behavior will work:
We will snap a drawing to all points on a bar: o, h, l ,c and plots of indicators in the current subchart. Now it snaps to OHCL or indicator values - it depends on what is on background.
If the new behavior seems reasonable we will implement this feature in a few days.

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Postby RobotMan » 11 Mar 2009

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the follow-up.
After playing around with other drawing tools today, I noticed that most of them are broken when the aforementioned conditions exist (ie: data or indicator of interest not at #1).

Appreciate your continued development,

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 11 Mar 2009

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the follow-up.
After playing around with other drawing tools today, I noticed that most of them are broken when the aforementioned conditions exist (ie: data or indicator of interest not at #1).

Appreciate your continued development,


Hi Bob,
1. What do you mean by "broken"?
2. How do feel about our new snap mode idea?
Thanks

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Postby TJ » 11 Mar 2009

Let me post an example from another forum
Here the high low plot type is set to the widest plot to simulate a shaded range. (when will MC have shaded ranges btw?)?)
Obviously the data series absolutely must go on top in this scenario.
http://www.tssupport.com/forum/download.php?id=2019

a little OT:

that illustration was from Traders Laboratory:
http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums ... -5551.html

if you are new to EasyLanguage, this website is a wealth of resources.
It has lots of free indicators, lots of experts to lend a hand, and lots of trading and programming ideas.

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Postby RobotMan » 11 Mar 2009

For example, lets say I have as one of my indicators in subchart #1, a volume countdown, that is basically a text counter nearby the currentbar. It, for some unknown reason is in the #1 position when right clicking on the pricescale.
Snap mode is turned off.
Now, let's say I choose an "up arrow" and want to place it underneath a previous bar. It won't allow me to place it where I want it. It will attach at the very top of the subchart and now become unmovable unless I manually type in values to the property tab. Oh, and the only way to open the format window to do this is to click "Format>Drawings".
The drawing tool will not let me select it graphically with the mouse (right click or double click on it - I have only noticed this with arrows).

We've reproduced it and fixing it now.
We will remake the snap mode as I mentioned before.
Thank you.
P.S. Sorry - I've edited you post instead of comment. I apologize.

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 12 Mar 2009

I've edited Bob's post by mistake. Sorry.

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Postby RobotMan » 06 Apr 2009

I am following up and bumping.

RobotMan said:
3. When you format an object (like a trendline) and pick Properties>fixed point or regression, that you can select from anything that is on the chart: ie: H,L,C, Midpoint, typicalprice, any moving average, any channel, ANY PLOT OF ANY INDICATOR AT ALL in the same subchart without first having to mess around with right clicking on the price scale.


Andrew said
We will change it in the next beta and I want to confirm that the following behavior will work:
We will snap a drawing to all points on a bar: o, h, l ,c and plots of indicators in the current subchart. Now it snaps to OHCL or indicator values - it depends on what is on background.
If the new behavior seems reasonable we will implement this feature in a few days.


Hi Andrew,

It seems that I can now create a default trendline that is set to OHLC and when I place a new trendline it works fine without having to mess around turning indicators off and on to get the symbol to percolate to the top of the pricescale order.

However I cannot pick anything else. So, even if I do not set a default, I cannot pick on any indicator in subchart #1 - ie: if my indicator was "Plot1(TypicalPrice,"TP")" I cannot use the trendline tool to see a regression of typicalprice. -or- If my indicator was "Plot1((Average,10),"avg")", I could not place a trendline that snaps to "avg".

I was hoping that, in the format window, regression or fixed point, there would be a pull down menu of all indicators in subchart #1 in addition to OHLC. Am I wrong?

Thanks,

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 07 Apr 2009

Bob,
You can apply trend lines to the indicators. If you do it the plots of indicators will be listed in trend line's format dialog.
To apply a trend line to an indicator you should set Visual Order-> Send in the context menu of the indicator.

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Postby RobotMan » 07 Apr 2009

Hi Andrew,

you should set Visual Order-> Send in the context menu of the indicator.

I am not understanding this. When I right click on chart and select "Visual Order" I do not see any new options for indicators. I don't see any indicator plots to choose from in "format".

Could you step me through this? Sorry.

Thanks!
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Postby RobotMan » 10 Apr 2009

I am not having a problem in subcharts #2 and greater. Only in Subchart #1 where now the only option is OHLC.

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 13 Apr 2009

You should do the following steps:
1) Call the indicator's popup menu. Select Visual Order-> Send to Back
2) Apply a new trend line
3) The new trend line will have a list of indicator's plots.

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Postby RobotMan » 13 Apr 2009

Thanks Andrew. It is not intuitive, but it works perfectly!

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 13 Apr 2009

Do you have suggestions how to make it more intuitive?

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Postby RobotMan » 16 Apr 2009

Hi Andrew,

Here's my suggestion:

The idea is similar to: If you open a "format study" window and click on the "properties" tab, you will see drop down menu called "Base Study On" and it will list all the data series in that chart. (See FormatStudy.jpg)

Now what if: instead of opening "Visual Order..." and sending something [you want to pin a drawing object on] to the back (see VisOrd.jpg), you first place the drawing object in the chart and double click on it and within the "Properties" tab there is an area marked "Base Drawing Object On" and now there is a drop down menu that lists all the studies in that particular subchart (the same ones that are now listed in "Visual Order...").
(See FormatTL.jpg)
You click on the study you want to place a drawing object on and the program magically loads the the pull down menus for "fixed point" and "regression" (I'm using TL as an example, it might be different for others) with all the plots listed for the study you chose in the previous menu. Additionally, if you had chosen the data series, it would list O,H,L,C. (Maybe even Midpoint and TypicalPrice.)

The added benefit would be, now you don't have to change the visual order if you have it set up the way you like it.

Now: What if you want to set a "default" Trendline and you try and place it on a chart that doesn't have the study you previously set? It could automatically choose Data 1, or automatically choose whatever is checked in the pricescale, or pop up a window asking what you would like to do. Your programmers would think of something...

Anyway, thats my 2 rubles.
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FormatTL.jpg
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