Feature request: Sub-Workspace

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Feature request: Sub-Workspace

Postby Tresor » 29 Mar 2010

Hi Guys,

I've been having this idea for some time now but only recently found time to make a picture that explains the feature of a Sub-workspace. It took me the whole day to draw the picture ;)

It was announced that MC will support manual orders this year, which made me very excited. If manual orders are introduced then I will finally dump MT and will use MC for charting and trading, and I will go multi-monitor.

The idea of a Sub-workspace will be helpful for multi-monitor traders. At the moment the multi-monitor users have 2 options:

(i) detach windows
(ii) open many instances of MC.

Each of the above has pros and cons. E.g. if you have a 6 monitor machine and open 6 instances of MC then the changes you will make to 5 instances, like drawing trendlines or adding an indicator will not be saved on exit and when you open MC the next day, you have to draw the same trendlines again.

Therefore I came up with the idea of having sub-workspaces within a workspace to efficiently handle charting and trading for multi-monitor set-ups.

Please have a look at the picture (hypothetical 6 monitor set-up) and comment.

Regards
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Postby Tresor » 01 Apr 2010

This feature would be of course useful for those multi-monitor traders who use their monitors as one large single monitor: http://hothardware.com/Articles/ATI-Rad ... on/?page=2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsrQF81n ... r_embedded

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Postby Bruce DeVault » 01 Apr 2010

I understand what the ability to use multiple monitors as one large space is (and monitors here have that capability) - I just don't follow how that's generally helpful. Not having Windows recognize where one monitor begins and another ends means you can't dock windows, maximize doesn't work properly, all windows have to be manually adjusted in their positioning, etc... which makes common tasks take longer. I know some like to use this mode because it's all they have e.g. triple head to go type arrangements - I just don't follow why someone would do it on purpose, because if Windows recognizes the monitors separately, you can still stretch things across them all if you want to - it just means that everything else works right also.

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Postby Tresor » 01 Apr 2010

The idea of sub-workspaces I had in my mind was to (i) use one instance of MC accross all 6 monitors (configured as one) and then (ii) lock each sub-workspace within 1 monitor area (one sub-workspace being responsible for multiple charts of 1 symbol).

Then when one switches between workspaces, one would have 6 (different) sub-workspaces within each workspace. In other words a sub-workspace would act as a mini-MC within an MC.

And from this mini-MC (sub-workspace) one could manage his trades / studies for particular symbol.

How it can be done in detail however would depend on the way manual orders are implemented in the first place.

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Postby Bruce DeVault » 01 Apr 2010

I agree with the suggestion, was merely questioning separately why someone would make their monitors like "one big monitor". Perhaps as simple as letting you "detach" a workspace separately without running another MC instance e.g. somewhat how TS handles "desktops".

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Postby TJ » 01 Apr 2010

The idea of sub-workspaces I had in my mind was to (i) use one instance of MC accross all 6 monitors (configured as one) and then (ii) lock each sub-workspace within 1 monitor area (one sub-workspace being responsible for multiple charts of 1 symbol).

Then when one switches between workspaces, one would have 6 (different) sub-workspaces within each workspace. In other words a sub-workspace would act as a mini-MC within an MC.

And from this mini-MC (sub-workspace) one could manage his trades / studies for particular symbol.

How it can be done in detail however would depend on the way manual orders are implemented in the first place.


you can easily achieve this with multiple instance of MultiCharts.

actually, for your application, it is PREFERABLE to have multiple instances of MultiCharts instead of sub-workspaces.

here's why:
1. with today's multi-GB machines, physical memory is not a problem
2. with today's multi-cored CPUs, processing power is not an issue
3. VERY IMPORTANT:
with MultiCharts being a 32bit software, each instance can address 2GB of memory... you can open more charts with multiple instances !

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Postby Tresor » 01 Apr 2010

If you detach windows on a machine configured as separate monitors you might face the following problem: when you switch from worskpace A containing FUTURES to a workspace B containing STOCKS, then you still might have the detached FUTURES charts and symbols on your MC turned to STOCKS workspace.

If however your machine sees only one big monitor (made of six) and your MC has a ''sub-workspace'' feature, then you can switch between workspaces and have FUTURES instruments in FUTURES workspace and STOCKS instruments in STOCKS workspace.

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Postby Tresor » 01 Apr 2010

you can easily achieve this with multiple instance of MultiCharts


Yes, there are many advantages of multiple instances of MC but there are also potentially some problems. I will consider going for Eyefinity 6 (6 monitors) when manual orders are introduced in MC.

I will have only 60 instruments (e.g. 20 forex pairs, 20 futs and 20 options). This means that I will need to have 60 instances open simultaneously, which should not be a technical problem.

What are potential problems:

1. Whatever I draw on the first instance of MC will be saved, whatever indicator I add in the first instance of MC will be saved. All remaining changes like manual drawing I will do for the remaining 59 instances will not be saved on exit. The next time I open the remaining 59 instances of MC I will need to redraw tens / hundreds of trendlines.

2. TSS would probably need to address the potential problem of 60 applications accessing my account at a broker.

3. Will all 60 instances need to access data feed independently thus creating the need for increasing the bandwith?

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Postby Bruce DeVault » 01 Apr 2010

With apologies, I don't follow why you feel tracking 60 instruments means you should have 60 instances of MultiCharts. Could you please clarify your thoughts on this?

The same data won't be requested more than once - that's one of the functions Quote Manager performs.

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Postby TJ » 01 Apr 2010

you can easily achieve this with multiple instance of MultiCharts


Yes, there are many advantages of multiple instances of MC but there are also potentially some problems. I will consider going for Eyefinity 6 (6 monitors) when manual orders are introduced in MC.

I will have only 60 instruments (e.g. 20 forex pairs, 20 futs and 20 options). This means that I will need to have 60 instances open simultaneously, which should not be a technical problem.

What are potential problems:

1. Whatever I draw on the first instance of MC will be saved, whatever indicator I add in the first instance of MC will be saved. All remaining changes like manual drawing I will do for the remaining 59 instances will not be saved on exit. The next time I open the remaining 59 instances of MC I will need to redraw tens / hundreds of trendlines.


just set mc to auto save on exit.

2. TSS would probably need to address the potential problem of 60 applications accessing my account at a broker.

3. Will all 60 instances need to access data feed independently thus creating the need for increasing the bandwith?


only one tsserver is loaded...
therefore you only have ONE database,
and one interface to your broker and datafeed.

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Postby Tresor » 01 Apr 2010

With apologies, I don't follow why you feel tracking 60 instruments means you should have 60 instances of MultiCharts. Could you please clarify your thoughts on this?


For each instrument I want to have 4 charts of different resolution that will cover 1 monitor. In the case of sub-workspaces I need to have only one instance open with 10 workspaces (10 workspaces x 6 sub-workspaces = 60 instruments).

In case there are no sub-workspaces I will need only 10 instances (not 60). My bad ;) One instance will in this case work as one workspace.

The same data won't be requested more than once - that's one of the functions Quote Manager performs.


Thanks, this clarifies one issue :)

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Postby Bruce DeVault » 01 Apr 2010

Why not detach the windows from a single MultiCharts?

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Postby Tresor » 01 Apr 2010

just set mc to auto save on exit.


Tried to find ''auto save'' in preferences and in F1 Help but failed. Can you direct me on this?

only one tsserver is loaded...
therefore you only have ONE database,
and one interface to your broker and datafeed.


That would class my feature request the most ignorant on this forum ever :)

Sorry guys for taking your time.
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Postby Tresor » 01 Apr 2010

Why not detach the windows from a single MultiCharts?


1. When you detach the window and leave it ''unsticked'' then when you click a trendline button then your detached window hides.

2. When you detach the window and tick it ''sticked'' then you see always the same window regardles the workspace you choose. And my preference would be to have changeable windows depending on which workspace I choose.

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Postby Tresor » 01 Apr 2010

In case there are no sub-workspaces I will need only 10 instances (not 60). My bad ;) One instance will in this case work as one workspace.


Having given it a second thought, I think I will need 60 instances open simultaneously if the part of the original feature request was to be sticked to (toolbar for each monitor / toolbar for each sub-workspace).

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Postby TJ » 01 Apr 2010

depending how many screens you have...
and how you want to monitor and trade your instruments,
a combination of multiple instances and detacted charts
should give you lots of flexibility.

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Postby Tresor » 01 Apr 2010

depending how many screens you have...
and how you want to monitor and trade your instruments,
a combination of multiple instances and detacted charts
should give you lots of flexibility.


It's true. I will be back on this thread when manual orders are implemented / when I go multi-monitor.

Could you help me locate the ''auto save'' button? I can't find it.

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Postby TJ » 01 Apr 2010

[...

Could you help me locate the ''auto save'' button? I can't find it.


you already have it checked in the picture attached above.
your worksheet should be automatically saved at every exit.

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Postby Tresor » 01 Apr 2010

[...

Could you help me locate the ''auto save'' button? I can't find it.


you already have it checked in the picture attached above.
your worksheet should be automatically saved at every exit.


It never gets saved... Maybe it is a bug or a problem on my end.

Whenever I have multiple instances of MC open, trendlines only get saved on the first MC instance on exit.

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Postby TJ » 01 Apr 2010

I have just tested mine (Version 6.0 Beta 2 (Build 3102)),
it saved my hand drawn trendline with no problem.


p.s. you have to specify the auto-save setting on each instance of MC.

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Postby Tresor » 01 Apr 2010

I have just tested mine (Version 6.0 Beta 2 (Build 3102)),
it saved my hand drawn trendline with no problem.


p.s. you have to specify the auto-save setting on each instance of MC.


No luck on my end. Only changes (trendlines) made in the 1st instance of MC are saved. The same MC: Version 6.0 Beta 2 (Build 3102).
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Postby TJ » 01 Apr 2010

I can see your problem.

1. you are supposed to open the same worksheet ONLY once at a time. Otherwise the wsp will get cross-contaminated.

2. you must have closed the right instance first...
a) when you close the right MC, MC auto-saved the changes in wsp #2,
b) when you close the left MC, wsp#2 wase also auto-saved... but without the added red trendlines.

thus the missing trend lines.
Last edited by TJ on 01 Apr 2010, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Bruce DeVault » 01 Apr 2010

I can see your problem.

1. you are supposed to open the same worksheet ONLY once at a time. Otherwise the wsp will get cross-contaminated.

It seems to me MultiCharts should actually check for this and not let you do it. I didn't know that was possible, and it doesn't seem like a good thing at all.

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Postby TJ » 01 Apr 2010

I can see your problem.

1. you are supposed to open the same worksheet ONLY once at a time. Otherwise the wsp will get cross-contaminated.

It seems to me MultiCharts should actually check for this and not let you do it. I didn't know that was possible, and it doesn't seem like a good thing at all.


Older version MC did not allow for multiple opening of the same wsp.

I don't know when this was changed.

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Postby Tresor » 01 Apr 2010

I can see your problem.

1. you are supposed to open the same worksheet ONLY once at a time. Otherwise the wsp will get cross-contaminated.

2. you must have closed the right instance first...
a) when you close the right MC, MC auto-saved the changes in wsp #2,
b) when you close the left MC, wsp#2 were also auto-saved... but without the added red trendlines.

thus the missing trend lines.


The left instance was opened first. Then the right instance was opened next (second).

So yes, I closed the right instance first (the instance that was opened second).

Am I correct to assume that in order to save data I should close instances in the following order?

1st open - 1st closed
2nd open - 2nd closed
3rd open - 3rd closed
4th open - 4th closed
5th open - 5th closed
6th open - 6th closed

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Postby TJ » 01 Apr 2010

Well, you should not open the same wsp more than once... period.

Which wsp you open or exit first is not the issue.

If you open a wsp more than once... then the LAST exit will overwrite whatever changes you have made to the previous ones.


Think of the wsp as a document.
If you open the same document more than once...
and made changes to all the instances.
The last one saved will be the version you see when you open it again.

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Postby Tresor » 01 Apr 2010

Well, you should not open the same wsp more than once... period


This will be hard / impossible to achieve because whenever I open many instances of MC, each new instance is opened with the same wsp, ergo there will be always the same wsp opened more than once, at least at the beginning.

E.g. a few minutes ago I opened two instances of MC and each instance opened on wsp ''2''.

When I think of the possible by-passing is that I will set my MC to open with no wsps at all (by default) and then I will be adding a new (different) wsp with each new instance.
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Postby Tresor » 02 Apr 2010

Yes,

It works sensibly now. I disabled ''Open Workspaces on Start, so each new instance opens without workspaces. Then I click (in each instance) Open Workspace. One workspace for one instance.

It is a rather time consuming procedure but I can live with it. The good aspect of it is the changes get now saved on each workspace (each instance).

Thanks for your help.

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Postby MC_Prog » 02 Apr 2010

FWIW, of all the trading platforms I have experience with, I think TS has the best implementation in this area with their concept and implementation of Desktops.

Desktops (collections of workspaces you can name, save, reload, and put on any monitor you wish) provide an excellent way of organizing work by any element desired (symbol, product, overview, detail, analysis, trading, timeframe, whatever you like ...), and can be placed on any monitor, or stretched across multiple monitors. They are equally useful if you only have 1 or two monitors. There's really nothing not-to-like about Desktops, IMO.

Using multiple instances of a program to compensate for the absence of high-level collections of interface objects is a software horror-movie.

The only legitimate nick I ever read or heard about TS Desktops is that some people definitely want to be able to detach a window. OK, fine. Desktops plus detachable windows. Case closed.

Poor interfaces must be recognized, re-thought, and replaced.
Great interfaces must be recognized and copied. Period.
This is the path to superior human interaction.

Desktops are a great interface. I have a hard time seeing how they could be improved upon. IMO, MC would do well for itself by adopting this already extensively proven technique and inherently flexible technique.

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Postby Tresor » 02 Apr 2010

Thanks MC PROG,

Multiple instances indeed can be painful.

I am looking at TS's multiple desktop feature right now. It looks sensible: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6Pg_-BZ ... re=related

I think I will need to make another drawing of the feature I wanted. My first post with the drawing is missing some important explainations.

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Postby Tresor » 02 Apr 2010

Okay,

I gave the concept of sub-wsp another try. Please look at the picture :D
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Postby Tresor » 05 Apr 2010

In another thread TJ posted a link to: http://www.freestockcharts.com/

With this website one can create nice sub-workspaces. I would love to have something like this implemented in MC.

An example attached as a sreenshot.
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freestock sub-workspace.png
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