MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

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StratMan
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MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 20 Apr 2011

Suppose your broker / data provider provide quotes with 1/10 pip (5 digits after decimal point on eurusd)
MC7 does not properly handle the rates displayed in 1/10 pip.

A first consequence: if your chart uses a resolution in points, then you have to multiply by 10 the initial value of the desired resolution. Example: You want a resolution of 10 points, then you need to enter 100 points ...

A second consequence: if you use an 'Exit Strategy' (Master Strategy, Stop Loss, Profit Target, etc...) that you want to set in pips, then you must multiply the number of pips per 10. Example: You want to attach a Stop Loss strategy with a value of 30 pips, so you need to enter 300 pips...
And if you enter 30 pips, then your Stop Loss will be executed at 3 pips :-))) (hence the importance of demo accounts)

If by chance you are using MC on the Forex market, there should be other functions impacted by this anomaly, and it might be interesting to know all the consequences?
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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby SP » 20 Apr 2011

StratMan wrote:Suppose your broker / data provider provide quotes with 1/10 pip (5 digits after decimal point on eurusd)
MC7 does not properly handle the rates displayed in 1/10 pip.



You only need to change your Price Scale settings in the Quotemanager to 1/100000.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 20 Apr 2011

I did not say, but it is clear that in Quote Manager, Price Scale is set to 1 / 100000 ... and the number of digits is correctly displayed on the chart ...

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Tresor » 21 Apr 2011

StratMan wrote:Suppose your broker / data provider provide quotes with 1/10 pip (5 digits after decimal point on eurusd)
MC7 does not properly handle the rates displayed in 1/10 pip.


A sreenshot would be helpul. Thanks.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 21 Apr 2011

The screenshot show the price scale, set correctly in order to display on the chart the 5 digits after decimal point.

One video show the problem concerning 'point' resolution.
The resolution should be 80 instead 8 in order to draw correct range bars of 8 pips.
When the resolution is set to 8 points, the chart draw bars of 0,8 pip...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdhcf85yPKI

The other video show the impact on the order sizing where 30 pips is only 3 pips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RLOsPepnwQ

Do you need some more explanation ?
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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Tresor » 21 Apr 2011

Thanks. Possibly a bug.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 21 Apr 2011

Apparently tss did not take into account the fact that forex broker could provide 5 digits ...
I am afraid it is more a problem of preliminary analysis than a simple bug.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Tresor » 21 Apr 2011

StratMan wrote:Apparently tss did not take into account the fact that forex broker could provide 5 digits ...


I am sure they did take it into account. We need more opinions and MC team's insight on whether it is a bug.

I noticed in your video you trade GBPUSD. Have you considered shorting it? Looks like there is an opportunity RIGHT NOW of GBPUSD to fall to at least 1.61000 within coming 7 days.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 21 Apr 2011

Tresor wrote:I noticed in your video you trade GBPUSD. Have you considered shorting it? Looks like there is an opportunity RIGHT NOW of GBPUSD to fall to at least 1.61000 within coming 7 days.


Thank you for this opportunity !
I have a short position placed at 1,6580 ;-)
With a target1 @ 1,6325 / target2 @ 1,6170 / target3 @ 1,6050

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Tresor » 21 Apr 2011

StratMan wrote:
Tresor wrote:I noticed in your video you trade GBPUSD. Have you considered shorting it? Looks like there is an opportunity RIGHT NOW of GBPUSD to fall to at least 1.61000 within coming 7 days.


Thank you for this opportunity !
I have a short position placed at 1,6580 ;-)
With a target1 @ 1,6325 / target2 @ 1,6170 / target3 @ 1,6050


My order entry is a few pips / seconds away at 1.66000

Let's see how much money we are going to lose ;)

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 21 Apr 2011

Tresor wrote:
My order entry is a few pips / seconds away at 1.66000

Let's see how much money we are going to lose ;)


My strategy gave me an entry price @ 1,6595 but I wanted to secure this entry @ 1,6580 just in case the price stop on the 80 level...
Let run and look for other opportunities ;-)

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Tresor » 21 Apr 2011

I didn't use any strat for my entry. I just happened to meat Easter Bunny who told me when to enter and what pairs.

The bunny also told me where to exit (5 potential exits) on this particular pair.

If the bunny is wrong I will be very unhappy.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Nick » 17 May 2011

Any news on this? It does appear to be a rather nasty bug.


In any indicator on a spot fx xhart if you use close high low or anything that should return a price it is returning X.XX rather than X.XXXXX So for example GBP USD is returning 1.62 for everything. Quote manager settings are correct price scale 1/100000 and min move 5

Pretty serious as none of my studies work on FX now


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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Nick » 24 May 2011

I wonder why this does not have a higher status when it is a critical bug. Studies do not work at all on spot FX charts on MC7.0 that is pretty severe (if you trade spot :D)

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 24 May 2011

I totally agree with you that this bug prevents the use of MC on the spot forex market ... But it seems that users of MC do not trade forex ;-)

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Stan Bokov » 24 May 2011

Thank you all for reporting the issue. It will be assigned to a milestone soon.
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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Nick » 25 May 2011

Thanks Stan. It's a little worrying when it is in the tracking data base as a 'feature request'. One wonders if it is going to get the attention it needs with this category. It does seem to be slipping down the page! Anyway glad you are on the case :)

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Nick » 02 Jun 2011

Not sure if its better do discuss this is issue here or through the bug tracker.

Could someone explain why this is no longer targeted for release candidate? Is it simply a logistics issue?

This is a severe bug, you can not do much of anything with FX right now. I just wonder whether you guys appreciate that? I noticed it was once assigned a 'feature request' which worries me no end as it indicates that maybe the problem and it's severity is misunderstood.

I'd happily call or contact live support to demonstrate/explain things?

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby khalaad » 09 Jun 2011

Thank you all for reporting the issue. It will be assigned to a milestone soon.

Stan,

That was 17 days ago. Any progress?

Or should all Forex traders temporarily switch to MT4 when MultiCharts 7 comes out until TS Supports pulls its socks up??!!

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Nick » 10 Jun 2011

Whilst this may not be critical (I guess a critical bug is one that crashes MC or renders it completely unusable). This has to be the highest level of 'severe' as it renders MC unusable for FX traders that use studies.

What I find frustrating (and worrying) is that no one from TSS has acknowledged that they understand MC7beta is currently unusable for the above category of traders. At one point Andrew marked it as a feature request!!! It is not. At the risk of flogging this to death this is a severe bug that renders MC7 unusable for some of us!! Ironically it worked in V6.x and it looks like a simple rounding error has crept in somewhere.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby khalaad » 10 Jun 2011

What I find frustrating (and worrying) is that no one from TSS has acknowledged that they understand MC7beta is currently unusable for the above category of traders. At one point Andrew marked it as a feature request!!! It is not. At the risk of flogging this to death this is a severe bug that renders MC7 unusable for some of us!! Ironically it worked in V6.x and it looks like a simple rounding error has crept in somewhere.

Very well said!

Pricing in pipettes has been around a while; and why TS Support is dragging its feet on this matter is beyond the pale.
Last edited by khalaad on 10 Jun 2011, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Stan Bokov » 10 Jun 2011

Dear Stratman,

Thank you for the concise, clear and precise explanation of the issue. We understand what you mean and would like to answer all of the traders that post in this thread.

StratMan wrote:Suppose your broker / data provider provide quotes with 1/10 pip (5 digits after decimal point on eurusd)
MC7 does not properly handle the rates displayed in 1/10 pip.

A first consequence: if your chart uses a resolution in points, then you have to multiply by 10 the initial value of the desired resolution. Example: You want a resolution of 10 points, then you need to enter 100 points ...


A second consequence: if you use an 'Exit Strategy' (Master Strategy, Stop Loss, Profit Target, etc...) that you want to set in pips, then you must multiply the number of pips per 10. Example: You want to attach a Stop Loss strategy with a value of 30 pips, so you need to enter 300 pips...
And if you enter 30 pips, then your Stop Loss will be executed at 3 pips :-))) (hence the importance of demo accounts)


Dear traders,

To clarify for everyone in a definitive fashion - this is not a bug. It is an architectural design. While we understand your feelings that it would be move convenient to understand fractions of pips (treat the 5th digit as a fraction, not a whole pip), it is still a new feature that needs to be made, tested and released. There are many other features and bugs in the queue, and in our opinion this one is not critical - it can wait.

To look around what others are doing, TS has exactly the same feature. They count the 5th digit as a point. MT 4 - show us where you can enter the price for an order in pips, because we couldn't find it. You can specify an exact price in MT4, but you can do that in MC as well.

Overall, we agree this can be considered an inconvenience and could be improved, and we'll probably do it some time later. I want to mention that we monitor threads carefully, and we respond when it's needed. Mentioning that an issue is critical many times over doesn't make it more critical. This issue may be critical to you, but it's not critical for the majority of users.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Stan Bokov » 10 Jun 2011

Nick wrote:Any news on this? It does appear to be a rather nasty bug.


In any indicator on a spot fx xhart if you use close high low or anything that should return a price it is returning X.XX rather than X.XXXXX So for example GBP USD is returning 1.62 for everything. Quote manager settings are correct price scale 1/100000 and min move 5

Pretty serious as none of my studies work on FX now


This appears something completely different and unrelated. Could you post a screenshot?

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby khalaad » 10 Jun 2011

Thank you, Stan.

So long as TS Support eye is on the ball.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 10 Jun 2011

The definition of a pip is the 4th digit after decimal point, except for the Yen...
And MC should calculate based on the real definition.
Any calculating of MC based on another definition of pip makes manual Forex trading unusable ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentage_in_point

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Stan Bokov » 10 Jun 2011

StratMan wrote:The definition of a pip is the 4th digit after decimal point, except for the Yen...
And MC should calculate based on the real definition.
Any calculating of MC based on another definition of pip makes manual Forex trading unusable ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentage_in_point


Thanks for the info. You can for now multiply the points by 10 to get the desired amount.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Nick » 13 Jun 2011

Stan Bokov wrote:
Nick wrote:Any news on this? It does appear to be a rather nasty bug.


In any indicator on a spot fx xhart if you use close high low or anything that should return a price it is returning X.XX rather than X.XXXXX So for example GBP USD is returning 1.62 for everything. Quote manager settings are correct price scale 1/100000 and min move 5

Pretty serious as none of my studies work on FX now


This appears something completely different and unrelated. Could you post a screenshot?


Hi Stan,

Just enter a study with

print(close);

You will see open close high low are all returning X.XX on FX. This is the serious bug that I have been talking about all along, sorry for any confusion :) Very simple to reproduce (unless my install is messed up) it's all user studies in all FX pairs. I can remote in if needed but I don't think it should be necessary.

It looks to be a rounding error or a masking error. Edit: actually seems to be a rounding error.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Nick » 13 Jun 2011

Here is an image as requested.
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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby JoshM » 13 Jun 2011

Hi Nick,
Nick wrote:Just enter a study with

print(close);

You will see open close high low are all returning X.XX on FX. This is the serious bug that I have been talking about all along, sorry for any confusion :) Very simple to reproduce (unless my install is messed up) it's all user studies in all FX pairs. I can remote in if needed but I don't think it should be necessary.

It looks to be a rounding error or a masking error. Edit: actually seems to be a rounding error.

If I understand you correctly, I don't think there is a bug here. What kind of output do you get with the following code?

Code: Select all

Print(NewLine);
Print("Time and date: ", date:6:0, "_", time:4:0);
Print("Eur/Usd close (default): ", Close);
Print("Eur/Usd close 5 decimals: ", Close:0:5);


For example, on my data from MB Trading (with fractional pips), this returns:

Code: Select all

Time and date: 1110512_1735
Eur/Usd close (default):    1.42
Eur/Usd close 5 decimals: 1.42405

Time and date: 1110512_1740
Eur/Usd close (default):    1.42
Eur/Usd close 5 decimals: 1.42469

Time and date: 1110512_1745
Eur/Usd close (default):    1.43
Eur/Usd close 5 decimals: 1.42588


Regards,
Josh
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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 13 Jun 2011

Stan Bokov wrote:Dear traders,

To clarify for everyone in a definitive fashion - this is not a bug. It is an architectural design.


I do not want to philosophize about the definition of the term 'bug'...
I note that the functions relating to forex use a wrong definition of the PIP. I understand that only very few MC user are trading forex and therefore the majority of users were not impacted by this bug. In these circumstances, I can understand the decision of TSS to not correct this misconception.

But do you seriously believe that this is possible to manually trade forex (intraday, 8 points chart, several pairs, ...) by adding a constraint to multiply by 10 the value of stop loss or profit target :-) ?

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby TJ » 13 Jun 2011

StratMan wrote:The definition of a pip is the 4th digit after decimal point, except for the Yen...
And MC should calculate based on the real definition.
Any calculating of MC based on another definition of pip makes manual Forex trading unusable ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentage_in_point



The definition of a pip is NOT the 4th digit after decimal point.

From the reference link you have cited:
"In finance, a percentage in point (pip) is the smallest commonly quoted change of an exchange rate of a currency pair."

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby TJ » 13 Jun 2011

Nick wrote:
Stan Bokov wrote:
Nick wrote:Any news on this? It does appear to be a rather nasty bug.


In any indicator on a spot fx xhart if you use close high low or anything that should return a price it is returning X.XX rather than X.XXXXX So for example GBP USD is returning 1.62 for everything. Quote manager settings are correct price scale 1/100000 and min move 5

Pretty serious as none of my studies work on FX now


This appears something completely different and unrelated. Could you post a screenshot?


Hi Stan,

Just enter a study with

print(close);

You will see open close high low are all returning X.XX on FX. This is the serious bug that I have been talking about all along, sorry for any confusion :) Very simple to reproduce (unless my install is messed up) it's all user studies in all FX pairs. I can remote in if needed but I don't think it should be necessary.

It looks to be a rounding error or a masking error. Edit: actually seems to be a rounding error.



try this:

print(close:0:4);


The print out is a presentation,
you can have it output to any decimal places you want.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Tresor » 13 Jun 2011

What might be needed is an introduction of fractional pips in MC to mitigate ambiguities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OtGTV3O ... r_embedded

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 13 Jun 2011

As the definition of a pip can not vary depending on the technology of the brokers, I confirm that for years, on the forex market, the value of a pip is the 4 th digit..

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pip.asp
Last edited by StratMan on 13 Jun 2011, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby TJ » 13 Jun 2011

StratMan wrote:As the definition of a pip can not vary depending on the technology brokers, I confirm that for years, on the forex market, the value of a pip is the 4 th digit..

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pip.asp


The practice is the 4th digit... not the definition.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 13 Jun 2011

In practice, you will not find a single broker who will pay you 200 pips of profit when you've made ​​only 20! :-) :-) :-) And a spread of 2 pips is not at all 20 pips ;-)

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby TJ » 13 Jun 2011

StratMan wrote:In practice, you will not find a single broker who will pay you 200 pips of profit when you've made ​​only 20! :-) :-) :-) And a spread of 2 pips is not at all 20 pips ;-)

I am not telling you that the practice of using 4th digit is right or wrong,
I am telling you that the definition of a pip is the smallest quote.
There is a difference.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 13 Jun 2011

TJ, if you find a broker who offers a spread of 2 pips according to your definition, please contact me asap ! ;-)
If you agree that the definition of spread is the difference between ask and bid, then you will find that all forex brokers in the world all use the same definition of a pip, which is different from that used by TSS on MultiCharts ...

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby TJ » 13 Jun 2011

StratMan wrote:TJ, if you find a broker who offers a spread of 2 pips according to your definition, please contact me asap ! ;-)
If you agree that the definition of spread is the difference between ask and bid, then you will find that all forex brokers in the world all use the same definition of a pip, which is different from that used by TSS on MultiCharts ...

I have no knowledge of the spread you are referring to.

I am merely pointing out the inconsistency in the understanding of a pip.

Can you post some screenshots? with notes to illustrate what you would like to see?
MultiCharts is very flexible, I am sure there are settings you can configure to tailor the appearance you want.
If it is a bug, I am sure MultiCharts will have it fixed.
If it is a feature request, you can add it to the Project Management.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 13 Jun 2011

The screenshots are available in my first messages of this discussion, as well as videos in the Project Management TM-298.
http://www.multicharts.com/pm/viewissue.php?issue_no=MC-298
And there is absolutely no doubt or misunderstanding concerning the definition of a pip on the forex market.
http://fxtrade.oanda.com/learn/intro-to-currency-trading/conventions/pips
Everything is clear and precise, but it seems that design error prevents TSS to correct this point.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby khalaad » 13 Jun 2011

The definition of a pip is NOT the 4th digit after decimal point.

I am telling you that the definition of a pip is the smallest quote.

TJ,

It seems the above are not universally accepted.

For instance, per OANDA pip is the 4th digit after decimal point; and pipette is the smallest quote!

StratMan,

You must be in pain; and need a quick resolution of the problem. But perhaps the Forum is not the best place to find a solution? Have you tried resolution via emails to Support??
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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby TJ » 13 Jun 2011

khalaad wrote:
The definition of a pip is NOT the 4th digit after decimal point.

I am telling you that the definition of a pip is the smallest quote.

TJ,

It seems the above are not universally accepted.

For instance, per OANDA pip is the 4th digit after decimal point; and pipette is the smallest quote!

StratMan,

You must be in pain; and need a quick resolution of the problem. But perhaps the Forum is not the best place to find a solution? Have you tried resolution via emails to Support??


I will take back my assertion.
I should have reiterate it as "smallest commonly quoted change",
but that still would not have made a difference,
because my assertion was not a detraction to the need for a flexible decimal system.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby khalaad » 13 Jun 2011

but that still would not have made a difference,
because my assertion was not a detraction to the need for a flexible decimal system.

Very true.

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 14 Jun 2011

khalaad wrote:TJ,

It seems the above are not universally accepted.

For instance, per OANDA pip is the 4th digit after decimal point; and pipette is the smallest quote!

StratMan,

You must be in pain; and need a quick resolution of the problem. But perhaps the Forum is not the best place to find a solution? Have you tried resolution via emails to Support??


To form an opinion, you only need to consult all forex brokers, all using the same definition of pip, to advertise their low 'spread' :-)

Khalaad, if I give this problem on the forum, it is only to inform and assist any other MC Forex users ...
(Needless to say I spent many hours with support, live and email ...)

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Stan Bokov
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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Stan Bokov » 14 Jun 2011

Dear traders,

As I mentioned in this post - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8495#p41114 - this suggested feature is a good one. It's just a question of priorities, and we can't implement it right now. However, to show you that we will include it sooner than later, we changed the status to Confirmed in PM. Things that are confirmed are fully expected by our management to become a part of the MultiCharts package.

For reference, relevant PM entry is this - https://www.multicharts.com/pm/viewissue ... _no=MC-298

khalaad
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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby khalaad » 25 Jun 2011

Moral imparative that I post this.

Plucked up courage to switch to MultiCharts Version 7.0 Beta 4 (Build 4344) yesterday.

And auto-scalped EURUSD all day; 5-digits PFGBest data.

Everything went smoothly.
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StratMan
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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 17 Jul 2013

I just read a tweet from fxcm (see attachment) with a pip definition and it reminds me that MultiCharts is still not corrected on this point, which is constraining in the case of manual trading.

Question: Do you have an ETA for this fix?
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Henry MultiСharts
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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 26 Jul 2013

StratMan wrote:I just read a tweet from fxcm (see attachment) with a pip definition and it reminds me that MultiCharts is still not corrected on this point, which is constraining in the case of manual trading.

Question: Do you have an ETA for this fix?

Hello StratMan,

Can you elaborate the exact issue you are referring to?

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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby StratMan » 26 Jul 2013

Hello Henry,

All details are in post #1 of this subject
and also on Project Management issue MC-298
http://www.multicharts.com/pm/viewissue.php?issue_no=MC-298
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swz168

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swz168
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Re: MC7 and Forex market in 1/10 pip

Postby swz168 » 26 Jul 2013

I don't mind if I have to enter for stopp loss or take profit in "ticks" (considering all the features you are going to implement for the next versions of MC.

But please show profit & loss in Pips for forex ! Forex traders think in Pips and not ticks, this causes every time confusing if we see the profits and losses in ticks.

Again, Non-JPY currency pairs: 0.0001 = 1 Pip,
JPY currency pairs: 0.01 = 1 Pip

Hope that at least the P&L shows Pips as unit in the next version of MC.


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