MultiCharts.NET advantages

Questions about MultiCharts and user contributed studies.
Laurent
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MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 24 May 2012

I wonder why nobody has asked this question before,
but I'm sure a lot of people are wondering what are the advantages of MC.net
compared to NT ?

I have never used NT and I really love MultiCharts (I'm really happy to know there will be a version that will support .NET), but for new customers (?), why would they buy a version of MC.net compared to the free NT software that support NinjaScript (in fact dot.net)?

- For the support of others brokers in MC.net ?
- For the support of MC.net?

I'm sure a lot of people can say why that will be better, so please reply to this post :-)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby TJ » 24 May 2012

Laurent wrote:I wonder why nobody has asked this question before,
but I'm sure a lot of people are wondering what are the advantages of MC.net
compared to NT ?

I have never used NT and I really love MultiCharts (I'm really happy to know there will be a version that will support .NET), but for new customers (?), why would they buy a version of MC.net compared to the free NT software that support NinjaScript (in fact dot.net)?

- For the support of others brokers in MC.net ?
- For the support of MC.net?

I'm sure a lot of people can say why that will be better, so please reply to this post :-)


Many questions have been asked, and answered.

But I am sure there will be more questions, and answers.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 24 May 2012

Oops where?

That would help customers to make a choice!

+ That would be also cool to know what are the limitations of NT to be able to change that in MC.net. :-)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 25 May 2012

Let's start as I'm alone :-)

Advantages:
- Multiple brokers,
- 64 bits,
- Nice charting,
- Nice support in MC.

and? :)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Andrew Kirillov » 25 May 2012

MultiCharts has great charts. However .NET version will allow programmers to do even more.
This is what we've created for a few hours as an example of GDI possibilities in MC .NET.
It looks great and doesn’t have any significant impact on performance.


Image

Image
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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 25 May 2012

Wow looks great! :)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Andrew Kirillov » 25 May 2012

Laurent wrote:why would they buy a version of MC.net compared to the free NT software that support NinjaScript (in fact dot.net)


Keep in mind that the free version is a limited product that doesn't allow you to trade and auto-trade. In contrast MultiCharts .NET will be a complete product for better price.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 25 May 2012

In fact I have never used NT, I thought it was completly free but as you say, it's not free for live trading/auto-trading! That's a good point ;)

BTW I'm sure some people have tried NT, that would be nice to know what are the "limitations" of this software in order to fix them in MultiCharts.NET (if possible).

Else some other questions:
- Before buying MultiCharts.NET when it will be available, is it possible to get its documentation ?
- Is it also possible to get the code of some “common” indicators to see how it will work ?

- Will the core Functions/Indicators (WAverage/XAverage/LinReg/Correlation ...) available in the MultiCharts.NET plateform? Or the customer also need to re-code them ? In fact some mathematics are hard to re-develop that's why I'm asking! :)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Andrew Kirillov » 25 May 2012

You will get complete documentation and 30 day trial. The built-in indicators will be available since we've converted them into MC. NET.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 25 May 2012

Let's wait for the official release!!! :)

If some (old :) ) NT users could post their expectations of MC.net, that would be so nice!

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby arnie » 25 May 2012

Will we see tools on .NET version different from "regular" MC version or both will be identical? As you can imagine, with 2 different versions there might be the temptation to develop the one with more capabilities, in this case, the .NET version, leaving the other one decaying as time goes by.

If they are going to be identical and since the main target for the .NET version are programmers I see no reason for me personalty upgrade but this is something that needs to be discussed upfront since as already told, MC users will have a huge discount in this new version and if we decide not to take advantage of that discount now and in a couple of years you decide to discontinue the "normal" version, forcing us at that time to upgrade it would be a pain having to pay the full product when we could have had that "huge" discount at its release.

By the way, loved that volume histogram for each price.
Forget version 8, I want version 9 and that histogram in my DOM :)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 25 May 2012

I find actually the MultiCharts community lacks of people who develops in powerlanguage.
In fact people are taking code/indicators from TS forums & co, but I find there is not a real community of traders that are developers.

I think it can change with MC.net, the NT community is full of experimented developpers who code complex strategies (on bigmiketrading website for example). I'm sure if they like MC.net, they can switch of plateform, and develop nice systems.

I hope to see a lot of geek developers here soon! :-)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Andrew Kirillov » 25 May 2012

The programming tools will be obviously different on the flagship MultiCharts and MultiCharts .NET. MC. NET will give more power for advanced programmers and they can do more. At the same time it is not friendly for traders, not programmers. So we will be developing both products at the same time. No products will decay as time goes. They just will serve different purposes and thus will be different.
We will announce prices shortly and I believe you will be pleased with it and decide two have both products at the same time just in case some programmers will develop the great (free!) stuff you would want to use in your MC.NET version!

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Stan Bokov » 25 May 2012

arnie wrote: By the way, loved that volume histogram for each price.
Forget version 8, I want version 9 and that histogram in my DOM :)


That DOM is an example of what anyone can create in MC .NET with GDI. We just chose to illustrate using the DOM, but can create a whole bunch of buttons, or whatever else you need. You just don't have capabilities like that with PL.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 25 May 2012

It will be also easy to connect to a database (sql server, ...) to do some stats for example! It is not the case with MC! :)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby TJ » 25 May 2012

Laurent wrote:It will be also easy to connect to a database (sql server, ...) to do some stats for example! It is not the case with MC! :)


basically anything that can be shared on the CLS. ie excel, VB.net, etc.,

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 25 May 2012

Yep, that will be great! :)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Fabrice » 25 May 2012

The DOM example shows that MC.Net is able to use C++ libraries, which is, by itself, refreshing compared to the EL "jail". But, for me, at that stage of my trading experience, the real advance, would be :
1) ability to write multi-symbol/multi-timeframe indicators, both in charts & market scanner
2) ability to define the namespace (scope) of data series
3) ability to use indicators as inputs for other indicators

1) should be clear. NT and eSignal allow that easily, although with an enormous limitation in eSignal about the maximum number of symbols, which does not apply only on 1 indicator, but for the whole running indicators; this is a big "no go" for me. With SC, well, not so easy, but feasible (I do not really like the spreadsheet "buffer")
2) would allow to define where the variables can be reused. For example, the scope "this market scanner" would give access to a variable (or data series) in all indicators running in *this* market scanner. The "all market scanners" scope would give access to the variable to all indicators in *all* market scanners. The scope "this symbol, all charts" would give access at the variable to any indicator in any chart where *this* symbol is in the instruments list. Well, you see the idea.
3) is really a missing feature from a long time (in my opinion)

I guess these specs (1 and 2) are difficult to implement, because they imply sharing memory and clever optimization routines for not swallowing up all the memory. But I am sure that TS Support have the technical skills to do it.

These are my main expectations for MC.Net.
Regards.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 25 May 2012

Thanks for your post vking!

I hope to see other posts like that from old/current NT users!
I think that the way things can be improved for MC.net!

Take the best from everywhere ;-)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 27 May 2012

A nice/long thread about NT users opinions:
http://www.bigmiketrading.com/ninjatrad ... rader.html

1) ability to write multi-symbol/multi-timeframe indicators, both in charts & market scanner
=> I agree

2)
- Total Market replay - all charts/instruments at the same time - tick by tick
- Order simulator during replay ( live like trading but during replay) - one can test any type of orders that one would use during live market - strategies/keys any thing

=> It seems NT users can't live without these features ;-)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 27 May 2012

From andrewtrader from BMT:

NT pros:
- discretionary trading:
* beautiful charting capabilities, candle outline coloring from scripts, regions, etc
* configurable ATM order entry strategies with multiple targets, BE, trailing;
- .NET scripting, but has API, etc. shortcomings;
- availability of data feeds in demo mode (however buying live license locks you in to one data feed provider only! You can't have other feeds even if you are NOT sending live order to them unless you pay for multibroker license or switch to demo. Nonsense beyond words.)

NT cons:
- absolutely crappy (unstable and slow) app architecture and almost everything else from data storage (esp. when working with different data sources for the same instrument to backtesting.
- no independent MC "QuoteManager" like app to manage multiple data sources/feeds;
- single app architecture - i.e. backtesting or data import can crash your discretionary charts and strategies, everything, workspace won't restore on restart;
- no hist. bid/ask and CDelta ability, no per tick, "inside bar" backtesting;
- no tabbed workspace management, no window managment to arrange windows, charts cannot be tabbed or selectively linked by TF interval, account or instrument. See MBT Desktop Pro how it should be done.
- constant instability (crashes if left for long runs) and inconsistency with results while developing/backtesting;
- unsuitable for automated trading because of the way it handles reconnects, errors and API internals;
- too lengthy release cycle - 1 version in 3 years, always lagging behind requests;
- but most importantly - poor NT management's attitude and ignorance to listen to the needs or reports of it's users, pretending "your case is isolated, nobody else is having/need it". If you report bug - I recommend to send screenshots.

In the light of this MC main core and architecture are light years away, although I don't especially like bulky MC's charts and config dialogs. NT's grid style indicator configs are more convenient and provide more flexibility. Winner is Multicharts anyway.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 28 May 2012

I do not know if it will be possible to do that in MC.net (I do not think so but I'm asking).
Sometimes, you want to do some automated tasks in MultiCharts.

For example, every day, I want to open some instruments with custom indicators and take automatically screenshots of the charts. Actually, the only way to do it, is to call an AutoIt script!

Will it be possible with MC.net to add a button in the toolbar that launch the code we want, or also to add an entry in the menu ? I mean you just need to click to the button/menu entry to launch your custom code :-)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby arnie » 28 May 2012

Stan Bokov wrote:
- Order simulator during replay ( live like trading but during replay) - one can test any type of orders that one would use during live market - strategies/keys any thing

This I totally agree with, this is a good suggestion, for both MC versions.


This would be something amazing to have. During replay we could give orders as if we would be online and actually sending orders to our broker.

But to have this, for me personally, the DOM needs also to have the ability to replay the day. MC needs to be able to collect all market depth data, all bid and ask traded volume, everything, so the replay can be the most accurate possible.

By the way, since you guys are considering footprint charts, you need to enable this chart type the ability also to replay. SC and MD are able to replay these charts which is great because we can replay what happened during a market reversal... how orders were managed, where orders hit the most right before the reversal, how they hit, so much information can be collected that in real time is almost impossible to see but during replay we have the time needed to study it.

Regards,
Fernando

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Stan Bokov » 28 May 2012

It would need to be either on a day-by-day basis (cleaned out after a day), or when you record/stop. There is so much data collected that you'll run out of a hard drive very quickly.

What about the global tick-by-tick playback? Any ideas?

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Stan Bokov » 28 May 2012

Laurent wrote:I do not know if it will be possible to do that in MC.net (I do not think so but I'm asking).
Sometimes, you want to do some automated tasks in MultiCharts.

For example, every day, I want to open some instruments with custom indicators and take automatically screenshots of the charts. Actually, the only way to do it, is to call an AutoIt script!

Will it be possible with MC.net to add a button in the toolbar that launch the code we want, or also to add an entry in the menu ? I mean you just need to click to the button/menu entry to launch your custom code :-)


Eventually, of course, you can create custom buttons and drawings right on the chart (i.e. the DOM posted). Not in the menus or existing toolbars, though. You will be able to add your own buttons to the custom toolbar to automate certain tasks.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Stan Bokov » 28 May 2012

Global tick-by-tick playback discussion moved over here - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10442

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 05 Jun 2012

http://www.bigmiketrading.com/NT/13894-unofficial-nt8-wish-list-thread.html

That's a great list of features from NT 8 users!
I'm sure it can give some idea to the MC.net developers :-)

Some ideas looks great!

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 12 Jun 2012

Will the beta be out this week? :-)

I'm curious to read the "API" to interface .NET indicators!

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Henry MultiСharts » 12 Jun 2012

Laurent wrote:Will the beta be out this week? :-)

I'm curious to read the "API" to interface .NET indicators!

Hello Laurent,

.NET will not be out this week. There is no ETA at the moment.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 12 Jun 2012

Sniff :'-(

Thanks Henry!

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby janus » 13 Jun 2012

I think you are comparing MC.NET to the wrong alternative (NT). After briefly looking at AB, I feel that's a more appropriate comparison, at least in terms of speed and reliability.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 13 Jun 2012

Well, the most famous trading software that use .NET is certainly NT. Moreover they have a large community with skilled users/developers. I think it's also the first one to have supported .NET. They have an experience :)

AB for me is losing "momentum"... They also do not have a large community.
On a trading forum (such as BigMikeTrading), I think you can see the users trends ;-)

But you know, if AB has nice features, they are welcome in MC.net ;-)
It would be nice to take the best from everywhetre (but also difficult) ;)

PS: In fact it would be nice to have a opinion of AB users!

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby janus » 13 Jun 2012

Laurent wrote:Well, the most famous trading software that use .NET is certainly NT. Moreover they have a large community with skilled users/developers. I think it's also the first one to have supported .NET. They have an experience :)

That is true but .NET has it's issues. Performance is one, which is why AB is so popular for high volume work. The ever increasing performance of PCs is watering down that advantage though.
AB for me is losing "momentum"... They also do not have a large community.
On a trading forum (such as BigMikeTrading), I think you can see the users trends ;-)

According to EliteTrader, AB is very popular. But being popular doesn't necessarily mean it's better.
But you know, if AB has nice features, they are welcome in MC.net ;-)
It would be nice to take the best from everywhetre (but also difficult) ;)

If an application had the best from everywhere, everyone would flock to it. It doesn't work that way with most software as the needs and wants of a the users vary.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby TJ » 13 Jun 2012

There are 2 prime reasons why a product sells:

1. the product is good

2. the product is cheap


Don't just look at the sales figures.
When something is popular, it does not always mean it is good.


We all pick our purpose in life.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 13 Jun 2012

In my opinion, the main problem with MultiCharts is the fact there is only a small community. Just a few users (still the same) that share their strategies/codes/experience or that participate to the features/bugs.

That's not because the product is bad. We all know that MC is a great product, surely one of the best. But the fact is, MC users get their indicators/strategies from the TS community, not the opposite. A lot of traders like having new strategies/techniques to adapt to the market etc... I see only old code/strategies on the forum, nothing really new since 2/3 years (except the bug reports and the feature requests but that's normal).

With MC.net, I think it's an opportunity to open the software to a new community with different kind of users (geek/developers/pros...). NT users are sharing a lot their experiences/strategies/indicator/code/techniques... NT users are MUCH MORE active than TS/MC users! Just check large forums, you will find about 400 complex strategies for NT (not only a few old (commercial) indicators on lovely charts).

If the product (the interface/API with .NET) is easy to use, developers from other softwares will use it and contribute and then the community will grow. That's really what I hope.

PS: that's my point of view, take it easy ;-)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby TJ » 13 Jun 2012

Laurent wrote:In my opinion, the main problem with MultiCharts is the fact there is only a small community. Just a few users (still the same) that share their strategies/codes/experience or that participate to the features/bugs.

That's not because the product is bad. We all know that MC is a great product, surely one of the best. But the fact is, MC users get their indicators/strategies from the TS community, not the opposite. A lot of traders like having new strategies/techniques to adapt to the market etc... I see only old code/strategies on the forum, nothing really new since 2/3 years (except the bug reports and the feature requests but that's normal).

With MC.net, I think it's an opportunity to open the software to a new community with different kind of users (geek/developers/pros...). NT users are sharing a lot their experiences/strategies/indicator/code/techniques... NT users are MUCH MORE active than TS/MC users! Just check large forums, you will find about 400 complex strategies for NT (not only a few old (commercial) indicators on lovely charts).

If the product (the interface/API with .NET) is easy to use, developers from other softwares will use it and contribute and then the community will grow. That's really what I hope.

PS: that's my point of view, take it easy ;-)


I see lots of sharing, not just for MultiCharts, but for EasyLanguage at large.

There are lots of codes everywhere... TradersLaboratory.Com , TradersXchange.com , BMT, etc.,

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 13 Jun 2012

I see lots of sharing, not just for MultiCharts, but for EasyLanguage at large.


That's the problem, that's TS community, not MultiCharts one.
We can say we have a community just by posting code from TS forums (or apparented) (just because it's compatible).

For me EasyLanguage is being declined, but maybe I'm wrong.

There are lots of codes everywhere... TradersLaboratory.Com , TradersXchange.com , BMT, etc.,


TradersLaboratory.Com is active with a lot of blablabla.
TradersXchange.com = dead with old indicator/strategies.
BMT = just a few thread about MultiCharts compared to other softwares.

But maybe I'm also blind. ;)

I know to have a community, everyone should contribute.
I contribute as I can, maybe by submitting features, or just by just saying what I think. Criticis can be also good sometimes.

I hope it's not personal for the Thanks, because I appreciate your involvement on these forums (but you're in the group of the few users) and I give more thanks than I receive (oops :p)

I just hope to see a new kind of users on these forums with MC.net! More active and more oriented on the development! That's all :)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby TJ » 13 Jun 2012

There are development projects; I have been invited to a few myself. They are quite complex undertakings, not really suitable for beginner participations or discussions on a public forum.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby janus » 13 Jun 2012

TJ wrote:There are 2 prime reasons why a product sells:
1. the product is good
2. the product is cheap
Don't just look at the sales figures.
When something is popular, it does not always mean it is good.
We all pick our purpose in life.

So true. That's why I was attracted to AB. It's dirt cheap yet feature rich, stable, reliable and fast. Still, I prefer MC for a variety of reasons but those reasons are wearing thin. What are most important to me are stability, reliability and flexibility to code. That's what I liked about AB and NT. The reason I stuck with MC is it's ability to develop quick code using EL despite the fact I'm an expert programmer who can program in a variety of other languages. It's all a compromise really, except for two aspects; stability and reliability. Given trading futures is a very risky business, those two aspects are paramount. There's no point having a product jam packed with great features when it's order processing is unreliable or the software is unstable. In life these factors generally are good for more expensive items, such as cars. The more one pays the more reliable and stable they, in general. The same should apply to futures trading applications.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Xyzzy » 13 Jun 2012

Andrew Kirillov wrote:You will get complete documentation and 30 day trial. The built-in indicators will be available since we've converted them into MC. NET.


Sorry, I'm late to this discussion...

One thing that I like about MultiCharts is that it's possible to review the code for the existing indicators/functions/signals to learn more about how they work, and to modify them to create custom indicators/functions/signals. At the same time, one of my "pet peeves" is that all of these code samples seem to use generic variable names. For example, the standard Bollinger Bands indicator starts with this code:

Code: Select all

inputs:
   BollingerPrice( Close ),
   TestPriceUBand( Close ),
   TestPriceLBand( Close ),
   Length( 20 ),
   NumDevsUp( 2 ),
   NumDevsDn( -2 ),
   Displace( 0 ) ;

variables:
   var0( 0 ),
   var1( 0 ),
   var2( 0 ),
   var3( 0 ) ;

var0 = AverageFC( BollingerPrice, Length ) ;
var1 = StandardDev( BollingerPrice, Length, 1 ) ;
var3 = var0 + NumDevsUp * var1 ;
var2 = var0 + NumDevsDn * var1 ;


Using variables like "var0," "var1," etc. makes it harder to understand the code. In this example, you can figure out that "var0" is the simple moving average (i.e., the middle line for the Bollinger bands), that "var1" is the amount of the standard deviation, and that "var2" and "var3" are the prices for the upper and lower bands. However, this takes some extra work.

For some other indicators and signals, it's really difficult to figure out what "var0," "var1," etc. are referring to. I'm not blaming MultiCharts per se -- perhaps this is just code that you inherited from TS.

Since MultiCharts is starting with more of a clean slate for MultiCharts .NET, would it be possible for the new program to have more descriptive names for variables in indicators/functions/signals? E.g., for the example above, the variables could perhaps be called something more descriptive like "movingAvg," "standardDev," "upperBand" and "lowerBand." This would make it much easier for the users to study the existing code and modify it as appropriate.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby JoshM » 14 Jun 2012

Laurent wrote:In my opinion, the main problem with MultiCharts is the fact there is only a small community. Just a few users (still the same) that share their strategies/codes/experience or that participate to the features/bugs.

Yes, the community is not very big. However, I don't share your view that there is a lot less sharing (when correcting the amount of sharing for the smaller MC community when comparing with the NT community). (See also comment later on)

Laurent wrote:But the fact is, MC users get their indicators/strategies from the TS community, not the opposite. A lot of traders like having new strategies/techniques to adapt to the market etc... I see only old code/strategies on the forum, nothing really new since 2/3 years (except the bug reports and the feature requests but that's normal).

I'm a MC user and don't get indicators/strategies from the TS community and I suspect I'm not the only one, ergo your "fact" about all MC users is more a opinion than a fact. ;)

I inclined to disagree with that there is "nothing really new" for the last three years shared on the forum. I've seen some threads with new things and added myself some thing thats I view as new. Also, if you're interesting in a more active community, I don't know how helpful it will be to downplay the efforts of the people who have contributed in the last three years. Which I don't mean as a flame or negative comment, but as a way of saying that for an active community we need both a) people willing to help/share with others and b) people who appreciate their time and effort.

Laurent wrote:With MC.net, I think it's an opportunity to open the software to a new community with different kind of users (geek/developers/pros...). NT users are sharing a lot their experiences/strategies/indicator/code/techniques... NT users are MUCH MORE active than TS/MC users! Just check large forums, you will find about 400 complex strategies for NT (not only a few old (commercial) indicators on lovely charts).

If the product (the interface/API with .NET) is easy to use, developers from other softwares will use it and contribute and then the community will grow.

I'm not sure why there would be more sharing with MC .NET. One might even argue that, since the MC .NET target audience are more experienced/professional programmers, there might be even less sharing, since these people have less to gain from sharing.

I don't know if NT users are "much more active" than MC users. At this moment, there are 35,912 NT users who have made 655 threads in the "NinjaScript File Sharing Discussion" subforum. That's roughly the equivalent of 1,83 sharing thread per 100 users. There are 1,838 MC forum users, who made 296 threads in the "User Contributed Studies and Indicator Library" subforum, which would be the equivalent of 16,10 sharing threads per 100 MC users.

I do agree however that the sharing on this forum can be improved, but I don't think it's programming language (PowerLanguage) related, but more a question of forum software. For example, the "User Contributed Studies and Indicator Library" subforum is hard to get a good overview from. Some threads in that subforum are discussions or help requests, and the default forum search function is not very good (in my view) in finding threads.

A better download section where users can contribute their indicators/functions/signals and know that these will be seen by other MC users might foster more a community. The download section of BMT is a good example of this, where every indicator has a description, screenshot, download attachment and a thanks/feedback form. That's a clean and efficient way to see what is shared and to get your own shared work "out there".

Also, a "Want your indicator/strategy/function created free"-thread might be a good idea. However, I'm not going to start that topic since then I feel I should answer/help all people who comment in that. :) (Which is not to say I would not be willing to participate in such a thread).

Xyzzy wrote:One thing that I like about MultiCharts is that it's possible to review the code for the existing indicators/functions/signals to learn more about how they work, and to modify them to create custom indicators/functions/signals. At the same time, one of my "pet peeves" is that all of these code samples seem to use generic variable names.

Agreed. The EasyLanguage coding examples could use better variables names but I think also more comments about what the code does and why certain calculation assumptions were made. I'm also sometimes horrified by the coding standards that are used in the "out-of-the-box" EasyLanguage indicators/functions.

janus wrote:It's all a compromise really, except for two aspects; stability and reliability. Given trading futures is a very risky business, those two aspects are paramount. There's no point having a product jam packed with great features when it's order processing is unreliable or the software is unstable.

Totally agree. :)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 14 Jun 2012

I do not agree with a few things in your post, but it's nice to have different opinions.
Thanks for your post JoshM!

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby arnie » 14 Jun 2012

I don't know if it's fare to say that MC is unstable, at least the final release.
Beta versions have a couple of issues but we all know that is something normal to happen and if we want to use it we know that accidents might happen.

I really don't believe that the lack of signal/strategies shared in MC community is due to the fact of its size.
Yes, it's true that the majority of free code on the internet are from TS and quite old/basic stuff but I consider that normal since TS is the one that developed EL (back in the days of Omega Research and Samuel Tennis, in 1987 if I'm not mistaken)
.
I think we need to make two very basic distinctions here, there two sides of a program such MC, on one hand we have the traders, the ones who just want to trade and on the other hand we have the programmers, who also want to trade but on another level, the "algo" level.

I'm the first to recognize that there are no programmers available to develop tools for free for MC and I'm certain for most of the other platforms that have that ability. I was forced to contact a professional programmer so he could code the tools and ideas I had at the moment. For one or two indicators that is not a problem but when you start to come out with several ideas per week that you would like to test, things start to get out of hand and you come up spending hundreds or thousands of dollars in stuff that you might not even use at all.

But I don't believe that the size of the cummunity is the problem, the problem is the fact that developing signals/strategies takes time which has its costs. Does anyone know how many hours JoshM spent building his economic tool? Such a tool, would have cost more than a 1000 dollars if he have had hired a professional programmer to code it.

Programmers offer their work in the same amount traders offer their winning strategies. It's the same thing.

If NT has so many users offering signal/strategies, for me that's saying one thing, all those users are programmers and not traders, at least not discretionary traders, the ones that need to be in front of a computer screen and read the markets as it unfolds. These don't have the time to program.
Maybe the bulk of MC users are traders instead of programmers. Maybe the bulk of MC users have the capacity to hire full time programmers to code for them specific tools which for obvious reasons they will not distribute over the internet, for free, something that might have cost them hundreds or thousands of dollars.

Naturally that there are those special "souls", such as JoshM, SP with his footprint study, Nicolas11 at BMT and many others that I apologize for not mentioning them, that are able to offer for free their knowledge. We all would like to see more people offering their knowledge, specially those, like me, without programming skills, but I understand that not everyone is available to do that and because of it we need to adapt to the tools we are offered with, in my case, hire a professional when things start to get out of hand. With the years I began to understand some EL codeand I can program basic stuff but when things start to get really specific usually I need to get the help of the professional.

With this .NET version I continue to be very skeptical in terms of programmers sharing their work. Despite the platform opening the door to the most used program languages and their programmers, all the fundamentals discussed here continue to be the same. Traders are not available to make available tools that cost them a fortune to develop and programmers are not available to make available tools that took them hours/days/weeks of development without getting anything in return.

Regards,
Fernando

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 14 Jun 2012

Hello Arnie,

It's always a pleasure to read you!

I think more and more traders are developers nowadays in order to develop complex strategies. On BMT, I think there are a lot of individual/independent traders.
That's not with an RSI and an exponential moving average on a chart that's you will get money nowadays.

But maybe I'm wrong. I accept that ;-)

We will see with MC.net, if there is new kind of users!
I hope to see more developers but maybe it's a dream! :-)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby miltonc4 » 14 Jun 2012

Hi All
I would be hoping MultiCharts developers help with an number of strategies in MC.Net,and ways to use create code & use it to basically kick start the knowledge base,maybe in a separate forum or wiki type structure so that Developer work,and users work could be stored in a way that could be easily searched and added to by others,with emphasis on MC continuing the input of knowledge
Some sort of continuing specialized backup from developers to continue forward this new concept for MultiCharts rather than just giving us a new toy and hope we the customer will project it further.It needs to be driven by MC to help me and others who are traders not programmers to take on new skills,otherwise MC.Net may fail,I hope not
Regards
Milton

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby arnie » 14 Jun 2012

miltonc4 wrote:Hi All
I would be hoping MultiCharts developers help with an number of strategies in MC.Net,and ways to use create code & use it to basically kick start the knowledge base,maybe in a separate forum or wiki type structure so that Developer work,and users work could be stored in a way that could be easily searched and added to by others,with emphasis on MC continuing the input of knowledge
Some sort of continuing specialized backup from developers to continue forward this new concept for MultiCharts rather than just giving us a new toy and hope we the customer will project it further.It needs to be driven by MC to help me and others who are traders not programmers to take on new skills,otherwise MC.Net may fail,I hope not
Regards
Milton



This is indeed a good idea.
MC support themselves create a department dedicated to custom made signal/strategies. They not only would be creating a support don't seen anywhere else, but above all they would be creating real and trustworthy code ready to be used by all customers.
For such department to be financial viable, all submitted signals/strategies would be made public. This way they would ensure MC future stream of clients, clients that have special interest in the signals/strategies that MC developed based on their clients requests. Who better than MC clients to develop ideas, real traders, with no problem in making their ideas public?
Naturally that some protection system would need to be developed so TS users and others couldn't use them, otherwise the financial return would be at risk.

Well, another idea for MC support to dwell on.
Last edited by arnie on 14 Jun 2012, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby TJ » 14 Jun 2012

For the trader/non-programmers, the English-like procedural EasyLanguage is still the best bet.



Andrew Kirillov wrote:The programming tools will be obviously different on the flagship MultiCharts and MultiCharts .NET.

MC. NET will give more power for advanced programmers and they can do more. At the same time it is not friendly for traders, not programmers. So we will be developing both products at the same time. No products will decay as time goes. They just will serve different purposes and thus will be different.

We will announce prices shortly and I believe you will be pleased with it and decide two have both products at the same time just in case some programmers will develop the great (free!) stuff you would want to use in your MC.NET version!

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 14 Jun 2012

That's a great idea, not only for traders but for the marketing/commercial part of MultiCharts!
(Help for MC with powerlanguage + help with MC.net)

Now only MultiCharts knows if it is viable economically. ;-)

PS: And I do not see how to protect a public code in EL/PL from being ripped by a TS user.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby arnie » 14 Jun 2012

Laurent wrote:That's a great idea, not only for traders but for the marketing/commercial part of MultiCharts!
(Help for MC with powerlanguage + help with MC.net)

Now only MultiCharts knows if it is viable economically. ;-)

PS: And I do not see how to protect a public code in EL/PL from being ripped by a TS user.


In terms of protect a code, I'm sure there are ways to achieve this. Some key built in MC an in the code itself when it's being imported.

I do tend to first look at the commercial aspect of a business, even if that would go against my interests as a client, for example, something that would ultimately make me pay more money :P
I'm always being criticized by my friends because of it... what can I do, it's stronger than me :P

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Stan Bokov » 14 Jun 2012

Good idea! The wiki is already there, people could post knowledge about .NET (i.e. strategies, etc), and there will be a new forum. A new space for downloads is also a good idea.

One thing thought - our resources are not limitless, we can only do so much. That's why if users started helping fill these spaces (after all, look at every forum where everything is user-contributed), that would be a great kickstarter in itself.

We have the infrastructure - webinar rooms, forum, wiki... while you should take more charge and fill in the spaces and we'll do what we can as well.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 14 Jun 2012

We will announce prices shortly and I believe you will be pleased with it and decide two have both products at the same time just in case some programmers will develop the great (free!) stuff you would want to use in your MC.NET version!


Any news about the price ? :)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 14 Jun 2012

I wonder if the MC.net API will be very different of NT (Initialize()/OnBarUpdate()/Plot()...) or others softwares. Maybe if it is not so different, it will be also easy to convert existing scripts.

That's the unknown, I wonder if it will be easy to adapt :-)

PS: maybe it's not but maybe it is also better, just curious ;-)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Stan Bokov » 14 Jun 2012

Laurent wrote:
We will announce prices shortly and I believe you will be pleased with it and decide two have both products at the same time just in case some programmers will develop the great (free!) stuff you would want to use in your MC.NET version!


Any news about the price ? :)


We'll finalize it at some point during or after beta testing.

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Stan Bokov » 14 Jun 2012

Laurent wrote:I wonder if the MC.net API will be very different of NT (Initialize()/OnBarUpdate()/Plot()...) or others softwares. Maybe if it is not so different, it will be also easy to convert existing scripts.

That's the unknown, I wonder if it will be easy to adapt :-)

PS: maybe it's not but maybe it is also better, just curious ;-)


you'll see soon enough :)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby Laurent » 14 Jun 2012

too much teasing ;) ;)

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Re: MultiCharts.NET advantages

Postby kingkenny » 20 Jun 2012

Any news on the Beta test release? Seems to be dragging on for a while!!!


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