HIGH-DEFINATION CHARTING CLAIM KNOCKED OUT

Questions about MultiCharts and user contributed studies.
khalaad
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HIGH-DEFINATION CHARTING CLAIM KNOCKED OUT

Postby khalaad » 12 Sep 2008

Hi All MultiCharts Stakeholders,

fs and drwar have reported volume bars outrages.

Here is ANOTHER WARNING: please check ALL your bars to see if any is missing.

On my computer MultiCharts Version 4.0 Beta 2 (Build 1573) is randomly missing bars.

It happens only if a chart is opened during the trading session.

The ommission is not instrument or exchange specific.

Attached is a chart of GLOBEX Euro futures.

Untill this, I haven't had a single problem with my charts since February 2007 and I was quite prepared to accept TS support claim of high-definition charting.

What kind of software is this; IT CANNOT EVEN DRAW ACCURATE CHARTS.

Back in 2006 and early 2007 I used to check MultiCharts charts against charts drawn by the FREE QuoteTracker to see if a problem was not in the data feed.

I have also now completed this test; there is nothing wrong with the data feed. The comparable FREE Quotracker charts show no missing bars.

I have already sent an email to support@tssupport

Khalid
Attachments
MISSING BAR euro.png
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khalaad
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Postby khalaad » 12 Sep 2008

I do not know when MultiCharts started, but if we take July 2005 as the start time; then, regardless of the fact a version is “Beta” or “Official”, TS Support hasn't even got MultiCharts basic charting right in THREE YEARS.

This must raise serious questions about:

the way they do things;
where they are heading.

I have tried a fairly good number of betas in my life and can testify these people have taken the definition of beta to a new all time low.

Khalid

bowlesj3
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Re: HIGH-DEFINATION CHARTING CLAIM KNOCKED OUT

Postby bowlesj3 » 14 Sep 2008

Regarding the quote

On my computer MultiCharts Version 4.0 Beta 2 (Build 1573) is randomly missing bars.

It happens only if a chart is opened during the trading session.

The ommission is not instrument or exchange specific.



If what you say is true that it occurs only if you open a chart during the trading day, I think that almost all really experienced traders will not have an issue with this. I say this because the really great traders say you need to be consistent to be successful. This essentially means that they follow the same routine and rules day in and day out and often focus only on a few symbols until they know the price action of these symbols so well that they are almost always correct in predicting where prices are going to go (being correct most times is the key to success and calmness in trading but it takes a long time to get there). They will likely be starting MC and the same workspaces and charts will be coming up day in and day out as part of this consistency (never adding or removing charts during the trading day). If they make a change to a rule they stay consistent with it until they either discard it or keep it (maybe backtesting could speed this up at times). In the end they use only 1 or 2 basic studies to help. In my case my backtesting has been watching the intraday market every day for 7+ years and studying it every night too (and every weekend too). Open a new chart during the day!!! For me this is too time consuming and would cause missed trades. I would never let this happen. Now, having said all this I am running MC 2.1.999.999 and when I was first learning the software I may have opened charts during the trading day and I never noticed missing bars related to this event. There was a problem with the type of time stamp used (if you use exchange based time stamps). I switched back to the default and it seems okay now. All and all I find that for my requirements MC is a great product. I was a programmer before a trader and still do a lot. Program improvements is a bottomless pit. Almost without fail each one creates new bugs that need to be ironed out. I avoid the latest release for this reason (I will never touch a beta again and will stay at least 2 release back). Why bother. You do not need the latest release to make money. All you need is a great system with focus and consistency. I do not try to get MC to do all setup recognition or stall recognition either. My eyes seem to do a good enough job and getting code to do what they can do would take many years while the eyes can be used to make a lot of money during this time. I think some think MC can do everything and they can leave the room (kind of like thinking money grows on trees). Maybe after 15 years of studying the market someone can write such a system. Doing it without this experience is probably not likely to happen. Maybe a team could do it.

khalaad
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Postby khalaad » 14 Sep 2008

bowlesj3,

Thank you for the tutorial.

Open a new chart during the day!!! For me this is too time consuming and would cause missed trades. I would never let this happen.


But pray tell me if you have a (favourite) Euro GLOBEX hours chart, but -- being human and living in a time zone 10 hours ahead of Chicago -- only sit to trade trade the London hours how do you not open the chart during the trading session???

I am far from being a great trader, but I started trading stocks in 1985 and futures in 1986 and am still trading. I just happen to think I may be doing a thing or two right to have survived this long in the unforgiving futures trading environment.

If what you say is true that it occurs only if you open a chart during the trading day, I think that almost all really experienced traders will not have an issue with this.


I trade off the BAR CHART alone; no indicators. Therefore, it is important my charts have no missing bars.

My eyes seem to do a good enough job and getting code to do what they can do would take many years while the eyes can be used to make a lot of money during this time.


Perhaps my eyes do a good job too. And I have been lucky enough to code my method in EasyLanguage.

Why bother. You do not need the latest release to make money.


INDEED, I do not need the latest MultiCharts to make money. In fact I do not need MultiCharts at all. The very basic -- and FREE -- QuoteTracker is good enough if one is trading off bar charts alone.

But what if:
you would like to make use of a feature which is not available in the earlier MultiCharts versions;
you can code only in EasyLanguage;
wish to take advantage of extended market hours to computer-assist your order entries so you do not have to be right in front of the computer whenever a trading decision is made;
Trasestation won't open an account because of where you live;
Even back in 2006 TS wanted $250 per month plus data charges to allow you using the platform?

I agree

Program improvements is a bottomless pit. Almost without fail each one creates new bugs that need to be ironed out.


But should there not be a minimum standard before a even a BETA is dumped on PAYING users?

Good for you not needing to go beyond version 2.1.999.999, the finest MultiCharts yet.

Khalid

Tresor
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Postby Tresor » 14 Sep 2008


But should there not be a minimum standard before a even a BETA is dumped on PAYING users?



Marina, Andrew, Sergee and Stanley

In the past each new release of a beta version was anticipated by your customers with joyfull excitement of new and cutting-edge features / improving existing performance. With time each new beta version is raising rather more and more disscussions over the bugs. Some of these bugs are minor, some of these bugs are of big pain to your customers.

Most painfull bugs are the obvious ones to traders e.g. missing bars, drawdown miscalculations, etc. Obviously, TSS are not traders; otherwise they would have spotted these eye-catching bugs prior to a releasing of a new beta.

There is a solution of how to release new betas without obvious and painful bugs thus restoring the joyfull anticipation in your customers. Here's the cheap and simple solution (please do not laugh):

1. Visit this Russian language forum: http://forex.kbpauk.ru/ubbthreads.php (it is easier and cheaper to communicate in mother language).

2. Make an announcement that you need alpha testers. You will provide each alpha tester with FREE MC + 5 / 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 /50 bucks for each bug detected (alpha testers who are traders will detect bugs quicker and cheaper than your engineers who never traded).

3. Make a release of a beta without painfull bugs.

4. Have happy customers who trade and not grumble in your forum.

Regards

brodnicki steven
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Postby brodnicki steven » 14 Sep 2008

I've beta tested for Metastock and others, I understand that when I run the beta versions, they will have bugs, that's the purpose of beta testing, to find bugs.
Users are the most familar with the product, so they make the best beta testers.
If you don't want to deal with the bugs, you should stick with the latest final realease version. Or run both, have the beta running off line , to check out the new features and run the latest final release version for trading in realtime.
I enjoy each beta version even with the bugs, just to see the latest features.

Tresor
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Postby Tresor » 14 Sep 2008

Users are the most familar with the product, so they make the best beta testers.


No doubt here. As you can read in my post above my suggestion refered to alpha testing proccess, not beta testing proccess. I suggested that also alpha testing be run by traders to get rid of most painfull bugs that only traders are able to see.
Last edited by Tresor on 14 Sep 2008, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Tresor » 14 Sep 2008

If you don't want to deal with the bugs, you should stick with the latest final realease version.



I never used any beta and never will.

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Postby Tresor » 14 Sep 2008

I enjoy each beta version even with the bugs, just to see the latest features.


You would make an excellent alpha tester :mrgreen:

brodnicki steven
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Postby brodnicki steven » 14 Sep 2008

I run the beta real time everyday and it seems pretty stable to me, I don't use auto trading yet.
I do run TS2ki as a backup though.

fs

Re: HIGH-DEFINATION CHARTING CLAIM KNOCKED OUT

Postby fs » 14 Sep 2008

Regarding the quote

On my computer MultiCharts Version 4.0 Beta 2 (Build 1573) is randomly missing bars.

It happens only if a chart is opened during the trading session.

The ommission is not instrument or exchange specific.



If what you say is true that it occurs only if you open a chart during the trading day, I think that almost all really experienced traders will not have an issue with this. I say this because the really great traders say you need to be consistent to be successful. This essentially means that they follow the same routine and rules day in and day out and often focus only on a few symbols until they know the price action of these symbols so well that they are almost always correct in predicting where prices are going to go (being correct most times is the key to success and calmness in trading but it takes a long time to get there). They will likely be starting MC and the same workspaces and charts will be coming up day in and day out as part of this consistency (never adding or removing charts during the trading day).... <rest cut to save space>


I am surprised that these statements come from someone who is obviously very experienced. Essentially what you are saying is that if you have missing bars when you open the chart during a session, then you should not do it and open the charts before the session start. How is that a solution?

There are many reasons why someone might want to open a chart during the session. What if you use a market scanner, either from MC or an external one and you want to open a chart? I am sorry, but to say that the solution is to make sure to open charts before the session start just makes no sense.

Just because you wouldn't open a new chart during the day doesn't mean this doesn't make sense for someone else to do and is definitely no reason to ignore a serious issue like missing bars. And lets not forget charting is not a new feature introduced in the beta versions and is supposed to have been stable for a long time now already.

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Postby bowlesj3 » 15 Sep 2008

Maybe I misunderstood the problem. My understanding was that the workspace was already open with a few charts (and these were not missing bars) and a new chart was randomly added (and this chart is the only one with missing bars). In my situation all the 9 charts I use for the one symbol I trade are opened that I need during the day and since it is a very standard routine that I use (nothing new or unexpected ever comes requiring a new chart) there is never a need to open a new chart. I will be trading a second symbol but that second workspace will be an exact parallel.

I actually tried to go to 3.1 beta and bailed out. Some of the features I had asked for I have worked around via the use of a database program that can send key strokes to MC to control it.

For sure this bug should be fixed A.S.A.P. However I tend to immediately look for a work around and get back to work since it could take TS-Support a while to get it fixed. Having said this I harped and harped on missing daily bars but in this situation it was still missing these bars when the chart was opened with the workspace rather than after (in other words there was no workaround to it).

Yah, having been a full time programmer for 19 years and a trader for about 20 (full time 8 years and a completely different approach) I have a tendency to defend TS-Support. I see it from both sides. I was using Qcharts to learn on (no programming language) and MC is such a huge improvement that I still haven't gotten over it. As far as differences in style, I use to trade stocks and was scanning like 4000 (CRAZY!). Focusing in on one symbol is the smartest move I could have made. You can get a really high win/loss ratio when you do that.

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Postby bowlesj3 » 16 Sep 2008

Hi Khalid,

Maybe this is the problem you are experiencing. It exists in MC2.1.999.999 too. It is not actually a chart problem but rather a backfill, data feed problem that just shows up on the chart. Their one minute offset makes it confusing too but I have worked around that.

When I first started testing and using MC 2.1.999.999 I noticed it would miss 1 or 2 bars at startup depending on the speed of the initial download (this appeared in the 1 minute bars and I was opening all 9 charts in that workspace at once). If it did not miss a bar it may distort 1 bar. I both complained about this and thought it out and pretty much figured out roughly where the problem occurs and why it likely is occurring. I open my CME E-mini charts at 4am their time (5am my time). The IB feed is normally slow at this time so normally this missing bar does not occur (it depends on the Internet I suspect). Even if two bars are missing at this time of day it does not effect my bottom line of making money. I explain this first problem below then another very serious problem that one might trigger by accident.

The backfill to live gap:
When you first start it a download is done with a specialized routine to do a backfill. It runs a process of constructing the 1 minute bars from the ticks and I suspect puts them out as a single record. (open, high, low, close). This record may be in the buffer, not sure. I do not use volume at all. So here is where the problem occurs and the bars are missed. Once this initial backfill is done then the program starts to built minute bars based upon the live data feed. I figure this is a different routine that MC executes. Maybe both sets of data are in the buffer – not sure. So if the backfill was too slow then you will get a gap and MC is not smart enough to past them together properly and as a result you get 1 or 2 missing bars. As a programmer I am not too surprised this would be a hit and miss process where any attempts to paste them together perfectly may work some times and not at other times. Yes I would like it perfect but it is not and again keeping the big picture in mind as best as I can there is no lost income so I don’t care. On a bad day maybe more than 2 bars may be missing but this was extremely rare. When I was dwelling on this problem, if this occurs I shut down MC, return the files and run MC again and often I found that no bars were missing. Now I do not even check. Now if you analyze the bars against the IB charts these bars may be a little distorted. (not a problem for making money). Now if you are opening your minute bar chart during heavy volume this problem is more likely to be a problem for you. Simple, set your alarm clock, get up early, start MC. Go back to bed and get up when it is time to trade. If your system is smart enough to trade for you then there should be no problem.

The fat bar problem:
Now there is another problem. I call it the fat bar problem. It is a killer problem. It occurs when you start to mess with the time stamps. It may be an IB problem only where MC can not handle the exchange based times stamps. What happens it is starts to collect all the data into one bar only (it gets real fat). I had this bar collect an hour’s worth of data once and that is a real fat bar (I am talking about the minute bars, not the 60-minute bars). They told me that they can not figure out why strange time stamps come in from IB at times nor how to deal with it. Eventually I realized I could still make money and I let it go buy just using the default time stamps. You do not make much money fussing over trivial stuff like this. It pays to keep the big picture in mind as best as we can.

So I figure that TS-support is a bit stretched in their resources and their attempts to handle all the data feeds. It is a great idea and I think they may be doing a pretty good job generally. I am truly appreciative of their work and I certainly would not want to give them a hard time. It is okay to point out a problem but if you want to maximize their efforts praise is the best idea. People are more efficient when they are happy. I feel it is best for them to be up front about a problem and suggest a work around (getting up at 5am is not that bad actually).

Maybe these are fixed in the releases beyond MC 2.1.999.999.

Got to go.
John.


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