Grail acquired by TS

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Grail acquired by TS

Postby tcat » 17 Jun 2010

For those MC users who care...

Plantation FL, June 17, 2010—TS Acquires the “Grail” Walk-Forward and Strategy Builder Technology
check http://www.TS.com/aboutus/press_releases.shtm

Wouter statement goes as far to say:
"In short, the implication of the new technology to be introduced by TS, will result in MultiCharts not being compatible with a large number of extremely powerful commands and functionality to be introduced in TS 9.0. In fact, from here on MultiCharts will have great difficulty to maintain its EasyLanguage compatibility.
While TS has been working on this new technology for more than 5 years, it is now time for TS to move the goal posts and I have to admit, I think they are indeed doing so! Realistically speaking, I cannot see how MultiCharts will be able to catch up with the new TS9.0 functionality soon. (It might take them several years) As soon as I can share more detail, it will be more clear what I meant above."

Now, I know that TSS people have been really busy fixing MC6 and working on MC7, which could explain why they did not answer a number of threads, but it seems obvious that, with regard to the upcoming fork, they soon will have to react.

As for myself, I would appreciate an answer to
1) What support for Dukascopy API can be expected? (be FIX API or JFOREX API)
2) Regarding centralized databases, what are the limitations and the alternatives?

Regards,
Thierry
:?:
Last edited by tcat on 18 Jun 2010, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Grail acquired by TS

Postby tekram » 17 Jun 2010

For those MC users who care...

Plantation FL, June 17, 2010—TS Acquires the “Grail” Walk-Forward and Strategy Builder Technology
check http://www.TS.com/aboutus/press_releases.shtm

Wouter statement goes as far to say:
"In short, the implication of the new technology to be introduced by TS, will result in MultiCharts not being compatible with a large number of extremely powerful commands and functionality to be introduced in TS 9.0. In fact, from here on MultiCharts will have great difficulty to maintain its EasyLanguage compatibility.
While TS has been working on this new technology for more than 5 years, it is now time for TS to move the goal posts and I have to admit, I think they are indeed doing so! Realistically speaking, I cannot see how MultiCharts will be able to catch up with the new TS9.0 functionality soon. (It might take them several years) As soon as I can share more detail, it will be more clear what I meant above."..

Has Oosthuizen actually said that? The press release only mentioned "competitor".

“The Grail products all were developed principally with TS users in mind,” said Mr. Oosthuizen. “TS will be releasing some extremely powerful functionality in its upcoming Version 9.0 release which, in my opinion, not only will dramatically increase the Grail’s speed and value, but will take TS to a rarefied position where the barrier of entry for a competitor seems insurmountable. Teaming up with TS, and having the value of its impressive product development and user support resources and expertise, should take the Grail technology to a whole new level as well.”


Today at 02:44:51 pm »

OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT:

TO ALL GRAIL USERS

Please note that TS Technologies, Inc., the trading software technology subsidiary of TS Group, Inc. (NASDAQ GS: TRAD), has acquired the Grail Genetic Optimizer (GGO), Walk-Forward Optimizer (GWFO)
and Computer Assisted Strategy Builder (CASB) technology from Technovest (Pty) Ltd. The plan is to fully integrate these Grail products within the TS platform over the next few months.
Until the integration is completed, your Grail licence will continue on the same terms, except only that payments for new/additional licences will be going to TS Technologies.
I am joining TS full-time to help lead the integration and the continuation of Grail trading technology as part of the TS platform’s award-winning strategy design, back-testing and optimization offering . Please read the press release via the link below for more information.

http://www.thegrailsystem.com/forum/ind ... opic=339.0

Wouter Oosthuizen
Chief Executive
Technovest(Pty)Ltd
www.thegrailsystem.com
17 June 2010

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indeed.

Postby tcat » 17 Jun 2010


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Re: indeed.

Postby tekram » 17 Jun 2010

http://www.thegrailsystem.com/forum/index.php?topic=340.0

Apparently that url is not fit for public consumption, unreachable unless you are a forum member.

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Re: Grail acquired by TS

Postby Tresor » 17 Jun 2010

Grail acquired by TS


Since TS Group is a company traded on NASDAQ arent' they supposed to release an info on how much they paid for Grail along with their quarterly / yearly financial statements? I would be interested to know the price. If anyone ever comes accross this information, please share this info.

As for myself, I would appreciate an answer to
1) What support for Dukascopy API can be expected? (be FIX API or JFOREX API)


:? you are not the only one http://forum.tssupport.com/viewtopic.php?t=7464

This is the best retail forex broker in Europe.

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Postby arnie » 17 Jun 2010

When reading the news and the comment that Wouter made, it sounds like Multicharts only exists due to its Easy Language compatibility with TS.

Well, yeah, it's nice to be able to receive TS users into Multicharts without any type of formulae restraints, but I think it's quite clear that MC as created its own market.

Actually, I think it's wrong living by the premise of being "TS compatible".
Again, it sounds like MC cannot survive without TS.

MC is already at version 6. It's time to break the chains.

MC as a lot to offer to their clients that TS don't.
Connection to several brokers and data feeds. My god, this, by far, is a major advantage when compared with TS.

MC as some problems that "it seems" their support don't listen too. Please notice that I said "it seems"

Well, unfortunately, TSSupport is falling into the same error which the market force all software developers to make (ie. follow the competitors and forget the clients).
On one hand, I understand this because without sells, there's no money to continue to invest and enhance the software, but on the other hand, clients stop to see their requests heard, which, at the end, results on another program like so many out there...

I just say this, TSSupport, please don't follow (at least, don't follow blindly) your competitors.
Listen your clients, give them what they want, what they request.
Be that software house that is known, as I'm sure you are already known for, that is able to give the tools that their clients requests.

Also, you should update your progress on the beta's to your clients. I'm sure this thing alone would stop with the majority of critics that populate the forum.

I was presented to MC when it was at version 3.
Bought it at version 4, and I hope to continue with it as long as I continue to trade (I'm only 34 years old, so...)

Regards,
Fernando

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Postby Tresor » 17 Jun 2010

I cannot see how MultiCharts will be able to catch up with the new TS9.0 functionality soon. (It might take them several years) As soon as I can share more detail, it will be more clear what I meant above.


It may very well be just a marketing talk. But if TS 9 is going to be a real threat I would propose what follows below:


Actually, I think it's wrong living by the premise of being "TS compatible".... Again, it sounds like MC cannot survive without TS. It's time to break the chains.


I agree with you.

SHORT TERM / IMMEDIATE ACTIONS:

1. Change web address from tsss.... into multicharts.com

2. Release version 7 with DOM and you will have a complete product - this will hopefully attract many new clients.

3. Fuse MultiCharts with MCFX into one product called MultiCharts (one single charting and trading and backtesting platform for stocks, futures, forex, options, spread betting, and what not). MCFX is not a recognisable brand and never will be - there are so many ''fx'' suffixes in the trading market which makes a promoting of MCFX looks like Sisyphus rolling a boulder up a hill only to watch it roll back down - there is no way MCFX can ever be effectively marketed with such a name.

4. Change the platform's price from $1,500 to $2,000.

5. Connect Multicharts to as many brokers and data feeds as you can (you still can keep an option of renting on monthly basis).

6. Any further developing MC 32-bit application should only be limited to bug fixing and implementing small bells and whistles that do not stretch your resources too much, like customisable cross hair colour, etc.

The platform will be complete and TSS should get a nice stream of revenues allowing them to focus on the below:


STRATEGIC ACTIONS:

Start designing and finally make a 64 bit application that will:

1. utilise all CPUs and all cores for ALL and ANY actions within MC 64 (not only optimisation and calculating indicators as it is today) - I can elaborate later on a rationale behind this - for now this historic thread: http://forum.tssupport.com/viewtopic.php?t=6016&start=0

2. utilise graphics card for acceleration of backtesting and optimisation and maybe other proccesses (e.g. loading of data) - why not make MC 50 - 100 x faster like was the case with Matlab?

3. optimise in a more complex way than today (optimisable within one search should be not only (i) input parametres but also (ii) resolutions on different bar types - see this picture from a thread from two years ago (Matlab): http://forum.tssupport.com/download.php?id=1579

4. allow to built custom bars / candles like in NT.

5. allow for easy localisation like in MT or MultiStation - this can help market the product in non-English countries. From what I remember there were two companies from my country that I introduced to TSS that were interested in propagating MC among brokers and on retail market. When they heard that English langiage is hard-coded in the system they imagined the amount of hard work to be done and simply became reluctant.

6. provide for easy integration of 3rd party products (third party optimisers, strategy builders, neural nets, visual pattern recognistion systems, etc) - this will help build a net of co-operating companies and programmers who will be naturally interested in promoting MultiCharts, like Grail was interested in promoting TS.

7. have top-notch multi-monitor support: http://forum.tssupport.com/viewtopic.php?t=7282 that no competition can come close to - this will help in trading corporations' market / bank market.

8. be able to plot open interest in ticks. There are a number of exchanges in Europe that report open interest in ticks, not daily. I was very unhappy I could not plot OI in ticks in MC.

9. Charge $ 5k for such an application (assumption is made that no hyperinflation occures by the time MC 64 is launched).

10. ... others will for sure add their 2 cents
Last edited by Tresor on 17 Jun 2010, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby janus » 17 Jun 2010

These suggestions are all good. Others and I could list many more. However, there's one major problem. TSS do not have the resources to do any of this in short order, let alone the majority of them. MC has great potential but lacks development resources. Just look at past posts that have asked for very simple changes that are yet to be implemented. Also, PLEditor is a woeful development environment. It needs to be scrapped and a new one developed.

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Postby Tresor » 17 Jun 2010

Janus,

I know I am a bad case of unrealistic thinker :mrgreen:

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Postby janus » 17 Jun 2010

Janus,

I know I am a bad case of unrealistic thinker :mrgreen:


Perhaps, but you mean well, which is more the pity. Shame that TSS don't listen more to people like you.

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Postby Tresor » 17 Jun 2010

So far I am happy with TSS powers of listening. Of about 10 features I proposed 1 most sensible about manual orders was listened to: http://forum.tssupport.com/viewtopic.php?t=7093 which makes my success / failure ratio in region of 1/10, which is still pretty high.

Imagine every 1 of your 10 prayers to God was listened to. You would be the most happy person on Earth with such ratio :D

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Postby janus » 17 Jun 2010

Yes, they have listened to your suggestion but they haven't implemented it yet. Hopefully they will soon to catch up with competing products. Before they do they need to implement my suggestion for simple order entries/exits, which I discussed here: http://forum.tssupport.com/viewtopic.ph ... 9&start=25

They have listened to this suggestion too but like yours is on some kind of "to do list". I fear it won't be implemented for a long time, if ever, due mostly to their lack of resources, unfortunately. I'm not too concerned as I've coded my own solution. However, it's sorely needed to attract more subscribers who have minimal programming experiences, and more importantly prevent existing ones from departing to another product. I like very much to see MC increase in popularity and become very successful.

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Postby Tresor » 17 Jun 2010

They have listened to this suggestion too but like yours is on some kind of "to do list".


http://www.fxcm.com/lp-strategy-trader-beta.html monitor on the left!

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Postby janus » 17 Jun 2010

They have listened to this suggestion too but like yours is on some kind of "to do list".


http://www.fxcm.com/lp-strategy-trader-beta.html monitor on the left!


Sorry, but I fail to see your point. Please explain.

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Postby Tresor » 17 Jun 2010

Sorry, but I fail to see your point. Please explain.


It's MC with DOM
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Postby TJ » 17 Jun 2010

Sorry, but I fail to see your point. Please explain.


It's MC with DOM


I don't see the DOM...

where is the DOM ?!?!?


maybe you are confused DOM with manual entry buttons?
DOM means Depth Of Market.
ie. the ladder.
Last edited by TJ on 17 Jun 2010, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Tresor » 17 Jun 2010

right

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Postby janus » 17 Jun 2010

I see. Looking forward to seeing manual trading added to the next release of MC.

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Postby drudominique » 17 Jun 2010

no it is not a DOM. that's a DOM :-)
here is what he misses most is MC.

french

non ce n'est pas un DOM .c'est ça un DOM :-)
voila ce qu'il manque le plus a MC.

http://cjoint.com/data/gsgUyVH5SU.htm

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Postby Tresor » 17 Jun 2010

no it is not a DOM. that's a DOM :-)
here is what he misses most is MC.


My bad. Sometimes the brain tell my finger to type what I anticipate instead of what I see.

Nobody is perfect.

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Postby tekram » 18 Jun 2010

Hopefully this thread is still about www.thegrailsystem, TS & Wouter Oosthuizen, Chief Executive Technovest(Pty)Ltd of thegrailsystem.

Wouther obviously had a transcendental moment once his TS $$ check cleared and is now full of respect and admiration for TS and the Cruz brothers.

BTW, the 'nothing' that Easylanguage is supposed to have originated as referred by Wouther below is often called the Pascal language, published in 1970 by Niklaus Wirth.

Wouter
Posted - 06/18/2010 07:54:17

Obviously MutiCharts will be angry.
Their whole business model is built on copying/imitating/reverse engineering TS.
Now it is going to backfire and for sure they realize the implications!
But as I said previously:
After all, TS is the TRUE INVENTOR of EasyLanguage. Without TS, there would have been no Grail in the first instance!

By the way, the words "Weaker Imitations" is not my words, but anyway, I do believe that the words are appropriate when it comes to TS9.0.
The problem for MC is that this time the extent of the enhancment is of such a magnitude that there is no way that they can just suddenly catch up overnight.
I have to applaud TS for the vision they had 5 years ago when they first showed the new concepts to a handful of users (myself included) in Las Vegas.

We should also remember that it is always much more difficult and time consuming to design original software from scratch and it takes much more brilliance and innovation to design software from scratch than what it takes to copy the same concepts afterwards with some modifications. That's why I respect TS (specifically the Cruz brothers) so much, who had the brilliance to invent EasyLanguage from nothing.

Wouter

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 18 Jun 2010

Thierry,

1. Since Wouter is one of TRAD people now it is his duty to advocate TS. However it is a fact that his own tool/DLL that never being designed with multi-threading in mind works several times faster on MultiCharts. It is an achievement of our vision and engineers. We were first introduced seconds, second timestamps, integrated genetic optimization (not 3d party tools that produce headache for users), multi-threading and very quick optimization/charting. We were first who removed silly limitations like 4096 volume and tick bars and so on. We were first who created dynamic portfolio back testing that reads EL code. We always gave users freedom of choice and will do it in the future.

So I will be happy to see TS9, but it is definitely not true that we need years to be compatible with them. It is easy to realize that TS must maintain backward compatibility and majority of commands already exist. We will just need to add new commands. It is not a big deal. It is obvious they are moving to Object Oriented Programming and it is fine.

2. Dukascopy will be available in MC 6 release as a data feed and broker.

3. We never came to limits of our databases but 7Gb ones worked perfectly.

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 18 Jun 2010

Here is Wouter statement from Tuesday, September 08, 2009 3:41 PM:

“I am making good progress in converting my own software to be fully MC compatible
and will be launching my MC version by the end of this month. ( www.thegrailsystem.com )
I am really impressed by the high degree to which MC is truly EasyLanguage compatible!!
As you know, all my existing customers are TS users, and I would like to gradually convert them to MC
users because I believe MC is the better platform.
I say this mainly because MC has EL commands available at portfolio level, which I believe is EXTREMELY important!”


Nothing has been changed since that time except a lot of improvements added to MC. It is obvious how $$$ can change one’s mind so easily!

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Postby phil » 18 Jun 2010

Hi Andrew,

Money run the world, or a good part of the world. What can we do. It will always have some persons that money will affect more the jugement then others. One of my neighbours have more then 1 billion dollar in personal fortune and we can talk with him like a simple person. And now he devote his fortune to help childrens that cannot eat every morning and it happen in every develop country not only in africa.

Some have better fundamental then others and I think it what make the differences between each others.

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Postby Andrew Kirillov » 18 Jun 2010

Goog point Phil.

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Postby tcat » 18 Jun 2010

Hello Andrew,
Thanks for taking the time to answer this thread.

Thierry,
1. Since Wouter is one of TRAD people now it is his duty to advocate TS. However it is a fact that his own tool/DLL that never being designed with multi-threading in mind works several times faster on MultiCharts. It is an achievement of our vision and engineers. We were first introduced seconds, second timestamps, integrated genetic optimization (not 3d party tools that produce headache for users), multi-threading and very quick optimization/charting. We were first who removed silly limitations like 4096 volume and tick bars and so on. We were first who created dynamic portfolio back testing that reads EL code. We always gave users freedom of choice and will do it in the future.
So I will be happy to see TS9, but it is definitely not true that we need years to be compatible with them. It is easy to realize that TS must maintain backward compatibility and majority of commands already exist. We will just need to add new commands. It is not a big deal. It is obvious they are moving to Object Oriented Programming and it is fine.


I agree. As long as nothing has been released from TRAD, every rumor should been considered as it is.
2. Dukascopy will be available in MC 6 release as a data feed and broker.

That is great news. I look forward to the release.

3. We never came to limits of our databases but 7Gb ones worked perfectly.

Well, that is a very good answer that does not answer the question.
The question is, can we use a centralized DB for several PC running the same version of MC, without having the configs being over-run by an upgrade?

As for all the feedback gathered in this thread, I think it clearly showcases what MC users expectations are, with regard to the current level of services provided by competitive applications, starting with TRAD.

Regards,
Thierry

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Postby tekram » 20 Jun 2010

More righteousness from a man named Wouter Oosthuizen, Chief Executive Technovest(Pty)Ltd of thegrailsystem.

Wouter Posted - 06/20/2010 01:17:41

Up until now I was actually very polite when it comes to MultiCharts because I am not a person that like confrontation, but maybe it is time to call a spade a spade. The fact is that MultiCharts is getting away with murder by exploiting a very grey area. Several months ago I was also excited about MC. But the more I thought about MC’s business model, the more I realized that as a software developer myself and knowing how much time and effort I have put into my own software, I can not morally identify with their business model which is purely based on copying and reverse engineering

I have thought about this a lot and the more I thought about it, the more I realized that by actually supporting MultiCharts, I was supporting a company whose whole business model is built on copying and imitating others, pushing copyright infringement to the limits. In my heart, I realized that no performance benefit can make good for what is morally not right. We both know that EasyLanguage is truly unique, unequalled and novel. (Ironic enough, several years ago I was actually thinking in a similar line as MC, but after careful consideration I had to admit to myself that morally I was not comfortable with such a business model and never completed the project I was working on) I don’t have to tell you that MC already introduced the first phase of a walk-forward optimizer into their platform, which only meant that in the long term Grail ran the risk of being imitated by MultiCharts itself. Thus, with respect, I don't think I needed anyone else's permission to decide how I should protect my own future as well as the future of Grail and at the same time ensure substantial long term benefits for TS users especially those that never previously had access to Grail (the last time I checked, TS had 47000+ accounts). Now I am not even mentioning all the other benefits of integration e.g. continuity, improved user friendliness because the end user no more has to perform the tedious process of transferring strategies to/from the GGO SmartEditor, allowing users to use the GWFO with protected strategies which is not possible in the standalone version, etc.etc.

But as my father always said: "the wheel always turn, sometimes very slowly, but it does turn". In this case MC's model of imitating and riding on the back of TS, is going to backfire. MC has a serious problem from here on forward. This time the extent of the enhancements to be released in TS9.0 is of such a magnitude that there is no way that they can just suddenly catch up overnight, if ever. MC's compatibility with TS is going to fall apart. Thus it can only be in the best interest of the majority of Grail users (i.e. the existing TradeStion users) to standardize on TS, i.e. the true inventor of EasyLanguage . Little emotion in this decision, just pure logic. (The "many of us" for whom the move is going to be "so difficult" according to you, is actually a handful of MultiCharts only users whereas the majority TS users do not have to make any move at all and will only benefit in the long term)

I realized some months ago that I fool myself by trying to be loyal to MultiCharts because of some individual users’ expectations and demands. The reason why I have been thinking about this issue so much is because as a software developer I am on the receiving end when it comes to imitation, just like TS has been on the receiving end for quite some time.

What MultiCharts did was to take a Rolls Royce engine (the EasyLanguage engine in our case) bolted on a generic supercharger and now calls their engine a Lada! Does bolting on a supercharger onto a Rolls Royce now suddenly make it a different engine? NO, the brilliance and reliability of the Rolls Royce engine lies in the ORIGINAL design of the engine itself which took the designers years to perfect.

Myself and TS will continue to design ORIGINAL software from scratch (just what TS is doing again with TS9.0) and leave it to MultiCharts to imitate.

Wouter
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Postby janus » 20 Jun 2010

I didn't realise that EasyLanguage compatibility was meant to be such an important issue. Of course there has to be a major break at some stage. I've seen this happen before with a package called PV~Wave. Another company spun off called IDL and used exactly the same language at the start. Then each went their own way and each added new features independently. It didn't take long for the two to be so different that any talk of compatibility was very much academic and irrelevant. I believe the same will be true with TS vs MC. They can't remain compatible - it's ludicrous to even think of it. So, it's a matter of what the user really wants when deciding which way to go. I don't see a problem the two becoming more successful in their own way. Competition is good.

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Postby Tresor » 20 Jun 2010

More righteousness from a man named Wouter Oosthuizen, Chief Executive Technovest(Pty)Ltd of thegrailsystem.


Screw him.

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Postby RobotMan » 20 Jun 2010

I hope Wouter monitors this forum and realizes how out of touch with reality he is. If someone cut and pasted this post in his forum, I would have no objection.

The fact is that MultiCharts is getting away with murder by exploiting a very grey area.
Several months ago I was also excited about MC.
But the more I thought about MC’s business model, the more I realized that as a software developer myself and knowing how much time and effort I have put into my own software, I can not morally identify with their business model which is purely based on copying and reverse engineering

It's called competition. It's the way things get better. For so long TS had none. It sat on it's ass and did not listen to it's customers. Then it screwed them by becoming a brokerage and releasing a totally new buggy TS program that left their entire license paying customer base without support. Assholes.


I have thought about this a lot and the more I thought about it, the more I realized that by actually supporting MultiCharts, I was supporting a company whose whole business model is built on copying and imitating others, pushing copyright infringement to the limits. In my heart, I realized that no performance benefit can make good for what is morally not right.

Wouter, you would not survive one business quarter here in the Silicon Valley because that is all we do here. This business model has challenged and changed the world, you pompous condescending ass.


I don’t have to tell you that MC already introduced the first phase of a walk-forward optimizer into their platform, which only meant that in the long term Grail ran the risk of being imitated by MultiCharts itself.

This is BS. Wouter, in my opinion, believed he would have an inferior product and could not make money. TS offered him some and he took it. Now he is trying to cover his arrogant ass by painting a ridiculous honorable picture of himself. Wouter was scared of competition. He hates Capitalism and he just comes off sounding weak.


In this case MC's model of imitating and riding on the back of TS, is going to backfire.

Hello, Pot calling Kettle, hello...


I realized some months ago that I fool myself by trying to be loyal to MultiCharts

You ARE a fool. Good luck living with your decision to bad mouth MC. Classy.


What MultiCharts did was to take a Rolls Royce engine (the EasyLanguage engine in our case) bolted on a generic supercharger and now calls their engine a Lada!

You can lie with the best of them, can't you.
TS2000i was on the cusp of being usable. It's customers were no better than paying beta testers that customer support couldn't care less about. What MultiCharts has done is create supply to demand. Simple. Something that OmegaResearch could not do. MC CONTINUES to develop it's product by listening to their customers. All it lacks is resources, as far as I can tell. MC, from what I can tell, does no advertising. Do you see full page ads for MC in TASC (Tech. Anal. of Stocks and Comm.) and other periodicals? TS pays so much money to publications like TASC that they will never dare to offer an honest or critical opinion of their software or their brokerage. I know what I am talking about. I have had long email conversations with ex-TASC writers that tried to write honest reviews. Just like politicians own their media, TS owns the trading media through advertising dollars. And you, my dear Wouter, are now owned by them too. Loser.

Competition between TS and MC is good for both - and for the customers. Let customers choose the freedom of MC or the Deathstar of TS. It is like the old Mac vs PC conflict. We are all better because these two diplomatically hate each other, but know deep down that they are drawing attention away from other software trading platforms that cannot do what they do. And like Janus says, sooner or later they will diverge paths and neither will be like the other.

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Postby TJ » 20 Jun 2010

Wouter Posted - 06/20/2010 01:17:41
...I don’t have to tell you that MC already introduced the first phase of a walk-forward optimizer into their platform, which only meant that in the long term Grail ran the risk of being imitated by MultiCharts itself.
...

Wouter


This is great news...
I never realized the Walk-Forward Optimizer is such a powerful tool,
so powerful that it is making him feel threatened !!!

He is actually giving MultiCharts a compliment, in a backhanded way.

Bravo MultiCharts!

;-)>

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Postby drudominique » 20 Jun 2010

multichart has what it takes to become number one I'm currently at and I know TS TS and multichart multichart better in all areas it falls short multichart a DOM and the ability to place orders directly from its DOM Brock and some functions on the day it will be possible I would quit because TS TS has become slow and expensive we pay for beta testing more cumbersome.

multichart is the future and hope that our expectations will be rewarded for TS has changed much the only thing that interests them is money customers are more satisfied if you make too much comment on the forum of your TS post is deleted it is TS TS today lives on its past and much money in advertising multichart him his strength is their quality and listening to their customers so I hope this will do multichart that it takes to be a numbers because they can :-)
cordially



FRENCH

multichart a tout ce qu'il faut pour devenir numero 1 , je suis actuellement chez TS et je connais bien TS et multichart multichart est meilleur dans tout les domaines il manque a multichart un DOM et la possibilité de passer des ordres directement du DOM chez son brocker et quelques fonctions le jour ou cela seras possible je quitterais TS car TS est devenu lent et cher nous payons pour des beta test de plus en plus lourde .

multichart est l'avenir et j'espère que nos attentes serons récompensé car TS a beaucoup changé la seule chose qui les intéresse c'est l'argent les clients ne sont plus respecté si vous faites des remarques trop fortes sur le forum de TS vos post sont effacés c'est ça TS aujourd'hui TS vit sur son passé et beaucoup d'argent dans des publicité multichart lui sa force c'est leur qualité et l'écoute de leurs clients donc j'espere que multichart feras ce qu'il faut pour etre numeros un car ils le peuvent :-)
cordialement

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Postby geizer » 21 Jun 2010

Don't know who "the Grail" founder is. It appears to me that their business does not interfere with MultiCharts. I guess they're happy now to be a part of TRAD. Good for them.

But for the time being can "the Grail" move out of the way, please. This is the MultiCharts forum.

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    Postby tekram » 21 Jun 2010

    Wouter Oosthuizen, Chief Executive Technovest(Pty)Ltd of thegrailsystem, now part of TS: "People that think that EL is merely a derivative of Pascal just illustrate their own ignorance."

    06/21/2010 05:32:59 Wouter

    Yes, EasyLanguage is indeed original and a novel invention. Several years ago I was actually thinking in a similar line as MC, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized EL is truly novel. What makes EL novel is first of all the fact that a few lines of EL code performs a HUGE amount of tasks in the background that the user is not even aware about and does not have to care. People that think that EL is merely a derivative of Pascal just illustrate their own ignorance. What only takes you a few lines of code in EL would typically take you several lines of code in any other 3rd generation programming language. For example, In any typical 3rd generation programming language you would have to setup loops, arrays etc.etc. just to be able to use a simple moving average. In EasyLanguage you merely have to use one command e.g. Average(Close,14) and EL will automatically perform all the work for you. No need to initialize, setup and maintain arrays to handle the price data either, EL takes care of all of that automatically! Also, when using any function e.g. Average(Close,14) you know that the calculation will be repeated consequently throughout the data period. When using a 3rd generation programming language you always run a much bigger risk that the programmer could have accidentally incorrectly initialized the array or maybe some of the pointers are using the wrong offset etc.etc. These kind of problems can be difficult to detect and sometimes a 3rd generation program/system can run for months with an internal bug that the end user is not even aware about. With EasyLanguage this risk is limited to the minimum. In short, prototyping a new trading strategy in EL can be done much QUICKER and much more RELIABLE and SAFER than in any 3rd generation language environment. So the whole concept of EasyLanguage is truly unique, original and BRILLIANT to so they least.

    I will also be the first one to admit that just like some other readers of this forum I previously did not appreciate EL enough. In fact, 4-5 years ago I was probably one of TS's biggest critics. That was BEFORE TS had introduced the penetrated limit order functionality. I always felt that it was absolutely critical to have the penetrated limit order functionality because without it backtesting results of any system that uses a Limit order could be severely overstated.

    Thus, at the time I went as far as moving over the AB platform which has a very powerful programming language based on C++. Soon I had to realize why EasyLanguage is called EASYLanguage!!!! What would only take 2 or 3 lines of EasyLangue code would typically take me anything between 10-30 lines of code in AB. Note that I am not saying this to critisize AB or any other platform for that matter. I am merely saying this to share with users my own experience. I first had to abandon TS only to realize how special TS and more specific EasyLanguage is!!!

    So, I am reading all the criticism on these forums lately and all I want to say to those users that are so critical of TS. Go to any platform that does not use EasyLanguage and you will quickly find that developing and prototyping strategies take 2-5 times longer and is several times more prone to errors. Good luck, I've been down that road, done that, been there!!

    In the meantime (while I was using AB) TS implemented penetrated Limit order functionality and I could not wait to refer back to TS and again enjoy the privileges of EL again! That’s why I am so passionate about EasyLanguage, because I UNDERSTAND its true strengths and advantages and WHY it is NOVEL and WHY EasyLanguage is much more than merely some commands taken from an English dictionary.

    Now I am not even talking about what is going to happen in TS9.0....

    Again TS will be showing that only the TRUE inventor of EasyLanguage UNDERSTANDS it so well to take it to the next level. I also realize that when TS9.0 will be released, there might be initially some hesitation from the more inexperienced traders/programmers. However, those that have vision will immediately realize what a big step forward TS9.0 is going to be. As with any cutting edge technology, there will be a transition period. Think back to the days when electronic ignition was introduced to motor vehicles. Initially the traditional mechanics all said that introducing more and more electronic parts will make the engine less reliable. Today it is simply unthinkable of having an engine without electronic ignition. The benefits of electronic ignition simply overwhelmingly outweighs the disadvantages.

    Wouter

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    Postby Andrew Kirillov » 21 Jun 2010

    Guys,
    Thanks for the support. It is hard to make emotion-free statements, but I will try to do.
    1. Regarding copying, imitating and “stealing”. We do respect TRAD and EasyLangauge. However EL is it not a patented technology (and couldn’t be) and thus anyone can use and extend use it for community advantage. We don’t just copy, we improve the standard. Wouter has no clue how hard to be EasyLanguage-friendly.
    2. Wouter is a perfect sophist, but not a good programmer. He is not qualified enough to make the judgments he did. Dennis worked with him to resolve the issues and it turned out that he simply are not aware of the programming basics. We spent a lot of time trying to explain to him that MultiCharts is multithreaded application while TS is single threaded one. He called it is a bug. OK we found a way to walk around without having his sources. We proved him that our platform is better (he accepted this fact) and it is has different design. I assume his business doesn’t run well and he will be happy to work for TRAD. We will never work for TRAD despite of $$$ they are willing to offer us.
    3. We are confident that we don’t break any laws and there is no infringement from our side. We will protect our interests in the US via our North American office in Columbus, OH.
    4. Our business model is based on a common sense. We don’t want to invent the wheel and force traders to learn something new. We spent years to copy all refinements of TS. We could spend a year to create any other trading language. However we understand TS has a lot of limitations and we fix it.
    5. TRAD’s goal is to stick you to what they give you, not what you need. Our one is competion and more options for our and ts users. I hope I make sense.
    Last edited by Andrew Kirillov on 21 Jun 2010, edited 1 time in total.

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    Postby Tresor » 21 Jun 2010

    from tekram:

    BTW, the 'nothing' that Easylanguage is supposed to have originated as referred by Wouther below is often called the Pascal language, published in 1970 by Niklaus Wirth.


    from Oosthuizen:

    People that think that EL is merely a derivative of Pascal just illustrate their own ignorance."


    Hillarious,

    tekram is talking to Oosthuizen via MC forum. Oosthuizen is talking to tekram via Grail forum.


    This reminds me of Argument Clinic by Monty Python :D

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y


    This forum needs a functionality of embedding youtube clips

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    Postby tekram » 21 Jun 2010

    Unfortunatley, Wouther Oosthuizen is no longer willing to post in an open, mostly public forum, such as here on MC. The other two forums are closed to the general public.

    It is of general interest to users of this and other forums to know where Easylanguage is heading. Whether MC will follow TS with some form of Object Oriented derivative of EL which TS may call OEL in TS9, or MC will go its own way.

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    Postby Andrew Kirillov » 21 Jun 2010

    OPP is a logical step and we support this idea. It will take time before it gives a value to end users since it is necessary to write new indicators and strategies.

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    Postby tekram » 21 Jun 2010

    For the record, I don't know Mr. Wouther Oosthuizen and have never used any profanity and vulgarity in characterizing him. Mr. Oosthuizen could have given MC users an honest and direct explanation here, in this MC open forum, and not in the other two closed forums. I think if he had done so, many MC users would have wished him luck and success and closed the book on the subject.

    Wouter 06/21/2010 10:33:11 Hi All

    The past few days I have been reading some threads on the MultiCharts forum. Every time I made a post over here, someone is posting it over on the MC forum. I expected MultiCharts to be angry but I have to admit, I never expected them to be so MAD at me! I am even being sweared at. The mere fact that MC allows crude language on their forum without moderation does place a question mark behind their professionality. Ironic, the fact that people are swearing at me just means just one thing: I may have hit a soft spot. (The last time I checked the crude language was still there, after MC made their official reply a little lower, so obviously they agree. But hopefully after our spy has posted this message as well, they will moderate the thread which has already been read 680 times by MC users)

    The internet is really an amazing thing and also very dangerous, because every thing you say is saved and can later be used against you! (For example, I have already saved the MC thread, just in case….) In my previous post, I referred to myself being a fierce critic of TS a few years ago. It is important to be able to speak open an freely, because that promote progress. In this journey to discover knowledge, one frequently develop improved insights and as a result one can then afterward come to better and more accurate conclusions. Just like me first having to wonder off to AB before coming back to TS.

    Now, the same applies to MultiCharts. For example, a few months ago, I was extremely excited about MultiCharts. I just came across the new MC 5.0 and was just like many other impressed by its capability to handle multi-threading. Immediately I posted several VERY positive write-ups about MC giving my first impressions.

    I then converted the Grail software to be MC compatible and started to use MC together with Grail. That’s when the problems began. Because of multi-threading we ran into bugs specific to MC, in other words given the exact same strategy and dll’s, we would run into crashes with MC whereas the same strategy would perform thousands of iterations without problem in TS. More errors manifested itself, for example: Occasional corrupt records being exported when using the FileAppend & FastFileAppend function - As soon as more than 4 cores were being used, then random duplicate records were being exported when using the FileAppend & FastFileAppend function in combination with the BarStatus function. - MC did not support the usage of "Buy/Sell next bar at Open of next bar -/+ X" in combination with "Buy/Sell next bar at market". - Occasional problems with dynamic arrays

    To make a long story short, the main reason for the two first problems turned out to be multi-threading itself and MC did supply a replacement dll to be used in the place of the FastFileAppend we all know. MC did put in many hours to supply us this fix and for that I cannot fault MC. One of the reasons why it took so long to solve the problem was because it was mostly happening on Grant’s 16 core computer. I am sorry to say, but it was a bit embarrasing when Dennis Globa ( CEO or highest authority in MultiCharts if I am not mistaken) e-mailed me on 2/9/2010 saying: "Dear Wouter We did as you suggested. Anyway we don't have 16 core pc now so it would be good if you convince Grant to help us to work on his PC. Dennis Globa TS support"

    So on 2/9/2010 I wrote to Grant: "My personal opinion is that a company like TSSupport which is selling a platform like MultiCharts which is competing with a platform with the stature of TS, should at least also make an attempt to test their software on a 16 core PC, because after all, that is their whole selling point!! How can you market/advertize your software on its multi-core capability, yet you don't even have a 16 core PC in-house to properly test your own platform? I also have the question, how can they claim that they properly tested Mc on 16 cores if they don't have a 16 core computer themself? Regards Wouter"

    Anyway, during this period of bug finding & fixing, I had to change my original mostly overwhelmingly positive comment about MC and reported: "With information to my disposal at this moment, my conclusion is that because of multi-threading, the MultiCharts platform may experience instabilities as soon as one try to use an EasyLanguage strategy that calls certain external dll's. (In our case it seems to be the FastFileAppend dll which is a rather straight forward dll being used by hundreds of EL strategies for many years)

    (note that I said certain dll's and I did not say that it happens with all dll's)

    Finally, note that MC5.5/6.0 does not support ELD's created by the latest TS8.8. Until such stage that MC can handle TS8.8 ELD's, the only way that strategies can be transferred between TS and MC is via text files."

    On 19/5/2010 I reported: "It has been confirmed that MC 6.0 Beta 3 still has a bug where MC would randomly buy/sell the wrong amount of contracts."

    Thus, I understand why they are so angry at me because I exposed several problems that other did not. In this regard I must give credit to Grant and other Grail users who helped me to identify several bugs that MC was not aware about. For example, MC did not even know that they were no longer compatible with TS8.8 ELD's until I notified them.


    Now let's get to the juicy stuff.... Today, the MC thread is more and more looking like a soap opera…..

    I quote an extract form the latest official reply from MultiCharts, posted today by Andrew Kirillov on the MC forum: "2. Wouter is a perfect sophist, but not a good programmer. He is not qualified enough to make the judgments he did. Dennis worked with him to resolve the issues and it turned out that he simply are not aware of the programming basics. We spent a lot of time trying to explain to him that MultiCharts is multithreaded application while TS is single threaded one. He called it is a bug. OK we found a way to walk around without having his sources. We proved him that our platform is better (he accepted this fact) and it is has different design. I assume his business doesn’t run well and he will be happy to work for TRAD. We will never work for TRAD despite of $$$ they are willing to offer us. "

    Ouch...when an opponent gets personal, then you know he is already losing....

    I will quickly respond: Andrew said: "Wouter is a perfect sophist, but not a good programmer. He is not qualified enough to make the judgments he did. Dennis worked with him to resolve the issues and it turned out that he simply are not aware of the programming basics. We spent a lot of time trying to explain to him that MultiCharts is multithreaded application while TS is single threaded one. He called it is a bug."

    Wouter says: I am so sorry to disappoint you but I actually understand MC and its problems way better that what you can even image. The truth is that I already signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) with TS late January 2010 and the final deal was signed not too long thereafter. Unfortunately it took months for the Visa and other approvals to come through, hence the fact that I was not allowed to say anything.(Remark for TS users: The deal could still easily fell through if I did not get my visa or SARS/SARB approval and thus this time was rather stressful!) That is why I never could give Dennis Globa the DLL source of the Grail. Legally I was not allowed to tell you or Dennis that I have already signed a legal contract with TS and that's why I could not give MC the source. Every reply I made at the time was made with this background and any "unawareness of programming basics" as interpreted by you is explained by me that was already bound by a legal contract. In essence, by speaking to Dennis, I was talking to a competitor of TS So again, I am sorry to disappoint you, but I can assure you that my programming skills is maybe just a bit more than what you thought!

    Andrew: "We proved him that our platform is better (he accepted this fact) and it is has different design"

    Wouter says: Stop quoting me BEFORE I identified all the problems we ran into with the MultiCharts platform. Even as I speak, MultiCharts 6.0 Beta 3 STILL has some instability issues. The same strategy strategy when run in MC will crashe around the 200 000 iteration mark, whereas TS easily completes more than 3 X the number without any incident. Right now I can start a CASB default template in TS and run a CASB D&P with 700 000 iteration, no problem. Do the same in MC and before you hit 200 000 iterations it will crash. Same strategy, same dll. This behaviour can only be explained by instability issues or somewhere the MC platform does not properly reset/re-initialize variables and/or memory, then leading to crashes around the 200 000 iteration mark, whereas TS completes more than 3 X the number without any incident. (If multithreading was the only problem, then surely the problem should have happened long before almost 200 000 iterations were completed)

    Andrew said: "I assume his business doesn’t run well and he will be happy to work for TRAD." Wouter says: Ironic that my small one-man business was doing well enough that I offered to purchase an 8/16 core computer specifically to try and solve the problem we had on Grant's 16 core computer, yet MultiCharts at the time was not willing or simply did not have the financial resources?? Yes, indeed I am very happy to work for TS.

    Clearly MC was happy when I wrote a glowing write-up initially but cannot handle any criticism. Andrew, let’s face it: Strategically you have been outwitted by TS and you are angry about it and we can all understand that. We are all intellectuals around here. Take it like a man, stop being personal and move on.

    The market is big enough for both MC and TS to co-exist.


    Andrew, yesterday you wrote: “So I will be happy to see TS9, but it is definitely not true that we need years to be compatible with them. It is easy to realize that TS must maintain backward compatibility and majority of commands already exist. We will just need to add new commands. It is not a big deal. It is obvious they are moving to Object Oriented Programming and it is fine.” Wouter's comment: Such a statement would only come from someone that has not yet seen TS9.0. Do you have the resources? Your own users don’t think so. I quote Janus’ post dated 6/18/2010 in the same thread: “These suggestions are all good. Others and I could list many more. However, there's one major problem. TSS do not have the resources to do any of this in short order, let alone the majority of them. MC has great potential but lacks development resources. Just look at past posts that have asked for very simple changes that are yet to be implemented. Also, PLEditor is a woeful development environment. It needs to be scrapped and a new one developed.”

    Surely TS9.0 will have its own growing problems, but I am afraid, MultiCharts, you are bound to be outwitted again.....

    ============================================

    Finally, to the other readers of this forum: We are living in a difficult time. Markets are difficult and many companies are struggling. During this time you want to be with a company with a strong balance sheet and sufficient resources like TS. If you have a trading operation you cannot build your whole infrastructure around a small company that may have difficulty to survive if we should have double dip recession. This is one of the main reasons why I also joined TS, because I realized that in myself I simply did not have the resources to ensure continuity for my users. But now that Grail is going to be incorporated into TS, Grail users are assured of long term continuity.

    Wouter

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    Postby Tresor » 21 Jun 2010

    I rather enjoy this surrealistic dispute :lol:

    This auction of who should feel more guilty reminds me of yet another great Monty Python's sketch in which four gentlemen auction of whose family was more pityful in the past.

    ENJOY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

    from: Wouter

    I never expected them to be so MAD at me! I am even being sweared at.


    Yeah, posting two sketches during a day in a forum thread can indeed be indicative of being MAD at anybody.... Pythons indeed do swear in their sketches, but I rather doubt they had Wouter in mind

    Sorry, guys, just could resist myself :mrgreen:

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    Postby tekram » 21 Jun 2010

    EasyLanguage Object reference
    http://help.TS.com/09_00/ELOb ... object.htm

    EasyLanguage Classes - descriptions of EasyLanguage classes and related namespaces properties, methods, events, and inheritance.
    Image
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    MarketDepthClassTS09_00.gif
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    Postby TJ » 21 Jun 2010

    "Object Oriented Programming" sounds powerful and professional,
    but I look at it as more of a marketing ploy than utility...
    because most of the retail traders will not be able to program in it.



    this is just my 2c...
    If you can program in OOP, more power to you.

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    Postby Andrew Kirillov » 22 Jun 2010

    Just complete this prolonged exchange of fire I want to tell you just a couple of things:
    I completely disagree with Wouter's opinion, but there is no sense to argue since the only real reason of his arguments is declared above:” During this time you want to be with a company with a strong balance”. We have enough resources and intelligence to demonstrate that if you manage it efficiently and peruse user’s interests you will get a better product quicker than a larger company that made it vice versa. We are releasing MultiCharts 6 very soon and already working on the next version.

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    Postby janus » 22 Jun 2010

    As I alluded to before with my example of PV~Wave vs IDL, I look forward to a greater separation between TS and MC. Let each go their own way. Competition is good. Time will tell if I stay with MC but for now I'm very pleased overall. Sure I've complained a few times but then nothing is perfect. I look forward participating in the journey of improving MC over the coming years. I just wish MC had more resources.

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    Postby Andrew Kirillov » 22 Jun 2010

    Thanks Janus. We do have a significant resources and MC 7 will demonstrate it. Stay with us.

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    Postby TJ » 22 Jun 2010

    TS will be adding ms time stamping.
    Does it mean that they will be copying and reverse-engineering MultiChart's original and novel invention?

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    Postby drudominique » 22 Jun 2010

    Good morning.
    TS is afraid because they know very well that many customers are dissatisfied and many of their customers (like me) find that multichart is fast, fluid, etc. .. as TS.

    I look forward to new versions of multichart but I have confidence in the staff of MC :-)

    cordially


    french

    Bonjour.
    TS a peur car ils savent très bien que beaucoup de leurs clients sont mécontent et que plusieurs de leur client ( comme moi ) constatons que multichart est plus rapide,fluide etc.. que TS .

    j'attends avec impatience les nouvelle versions de multichart mais j'ai confiance dans le staff de MC :-)

    cordialement


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