scaling of data(2) ,(3) etc

Questions about MultiCharts and user contributed studies.
Pipscalper
Posts: 72
Joined: 28 Jul 2006

scaling of data(2) ,(3) etc

Postby Pipscalper » 16 Nov 2006

when a second data is added to the chart and a indicator on datat2is displayed on data1chart., the scaling is a only working on data1.
If I compress or expand the chart, indicators on data2 do not move with the price.So an average of data2 displayed on data1 prices is showing an incorrect value on the chart.

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Alex Kramer
Posts: 834
Joined: 23 Feb 2006

Postby Alex Kramer » 16 Nov 2006

I think I see your point - what would you like to see as a solution, linking all indicator scalings by default or maybe a checkbox that says "link this indicator to scaling"?

Pipscalper
Posts: 72
Joined: 28 Jul 2006

Postby Pipscalper » 16 Nov 2006

Since its only a visual problem on scaling , Its better that an indicator can be set to scale at data1 or not. Then for an average a default would be OK but for other indicators which are momentum based and pricelvel is not so important ,defaultsetting would mean that such an indicator placed on the pricechart could be invisible.
So I think a checkbox per indicator would serve all.

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Alex Kramer
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Postby Alex Kramer » 17 Nov 2006

Thanks for formulating this, we'll consider the idea.

denizen2
Posts: 125
Joined: 17 Jul 2005

Scaling: Multiple-DataSeries or Mixed-Indicators

Postby denizen2 » 18 Nov 2006

Multiple-DataSeries Case Issues?
The proper scaling attributes in cases of mulitple price-data series on same plot-chart should always be the same, if they all share the same price-scale (on the right, and/or left sides), i.e., the scaling parameters for Data1, Data2, etc. for 10Min, 1HR, and 4Hr plots of the SAME symbol. I assume that if I have checked the Symbol-scaling box for "Screen" based scaling, then Data1, Data2, Data3 will all share the exact same scale.

If a price-based indicator is added to the same plot, then I assume that we would specify that the scale (for the indicator) is the "Same as Symbol" [check box selected]. However, there is a possible scaling 'issue' when the indicator(s) added to the price-data plot extend some distance above or below the price data, and then the plot scaling algorithm has to take into account the added indicator values when determining the min/max, etc, i.e., the scaling is no longer dependent on only the symbol price data.

However, if you look at the Scaling choices for any indicator you will see there are four choices, one of which is "Same as symbol", and is the one I always choose for this case. But this choice (nor any of the others) makes it explicit that the scaling of the indicator(s) will actually take into account BOTH the symbol-PRICE data AND all of the indicator(s) added to the price-chart. In my view, there should be a sub-choice check-box associated with the "Same as symbol" radio-button that makes it explicit to expand the scale (for everything on the same plot) to include any indicators extending above or below the price data-series. Maybe this expanded scale is already included as standard default behavior, right? But the user should not have to guess or assume how the scaling issues will be calculated when adding indictors to the price-data.

Then what if the user would like to have two different symbols (with very different pricing) be plotted on the same chart-plot, so as to compare timing or correlation between them, while also assigning a separate scale to each (say one on the left side, and the other on the right side). But we can not currently even do that, right? The left and right scale-labels are setup as part of the Chart-Window, and there is no way to associate either of those two choices with a particular data-symbol.

I would suggest that any time the user adds anything to a plot, when there is already something else plotted on the same plot, that the software acknowledge awareness of the existing data series, and then ask how the user wants to handle the scales of the next-added data-series. The Metastock software does an excellent job in this one area, and would be a very good 'model' to emulate :wink: . Similar issues are involved when only dealing with sub-plots that have multiple oscillators superimposed. E.g., how to handle the zero line of each? i.e., Aligned or not. Which side to put the scale-labels for each, etc.

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Alex Kramer
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Postby Alex Kramer » 22 Nov 2006

We've analyzed how this is handled in Metastock, its's fine and flexible, and the question is - would you like a case of inserting another symbol with a drastically different scale to be handled by scaling its chart to fit the available height? With a second scale added perhaps, so it's possible to observe the general trends on both superimposed symbols?

Speaking of the indicators, what we propose is use the existing "Same as symbol" setting, so the indicator is always scaled the same way as the underlying symbol.

denizen2
Posts: 125
Joined: 17 Jul 2005

Postby denizen2 » 22 Nov 2006

We've analyzed how this is handled in Metastock, its's fine and flexible, and the question is - would you like a case of inserting another symbol with a drastically different scale to be handled by scaling its chart to fit the available height? With a second scale added perhaps, so it's possible to observe the general trends on both superimposed symbols?

Speaking of the indicators, what we propose is use the existing "Same as symbol" setting, so the indicator is always scaled the same way as the underlying symbol.


Sorry for the long-winded post before this 8) . To answer your first question: yes, I would like to be able to add say two price-symbols on the same plot, but each has a separate scale-factor appropriate for each symbol, and the price-labels to be seperated, say on the left and right side of plot. More than two symbols (on same plot) would be kind of messy and probably un-desired.

There is still the issue of possibly needing to 'expand' the price-scales WHEN the applied indicators (if on the price plot) might extend beyond the limits of the price-data itself. So any price-plot-scale calculations should be adjusted whenever required to include any indicators that extend beyond price data, right? My point was to make that an 'option' for the user to explicitly choose, rather than just automatically assume that is what the user wants :) .

My other point was that mutiple oscillator type indicators might be added together in the same sub-graph. I do this often, but it requires a lot of extra diddling with each of the scaling parameters for each indicator :( . Why? Because what I want is that all zero-based oscilator type indicators ALL share the SAME zero-line. This can not be achieved currently without this extra work of manually setting the min/max scale levels. I shouldn't have to do that :wink:. The software should recognize that I am adding a second, or third, indicator to the same sub-plot, and then ask me if I want them all to 'share' the same zero-line, AND also whether to share the same scale factor (max/min). If the user chooses separate scale factors, THEN ask if user to choose which side to place the scale labels for each indicator.

So in brief, the issue is mostly about sharing the same zero-line (or not), and where to place the scale labels. I propose that user be given those choices, in a more convenient manner. :P Any chance of that being added in the nearby future?

Pipscalper
Posts: 72
Joined: 28 Jul 2006

Postby Pipscalper » 23 Nov 2006

what denizen is talking about is a new feature which would be most welcome.
But I mean that this problem ,of scaling an average of data2 plotted on datat1 cannot be scaled to data2, thats just wrong.So first of all chosing Scaling same as symbol should mean scaling to the scale where the indicator is plotted.
If the new feature of adding another data on the same chart is added then there should be a choice between data1 or data2 etc.

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Alex Kramer
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Postby Alex Kramer » 23 Nov 2006

Dear denizen2 -

1. The idea of creating 2 scales for 2 indicators is all right with us, this is the path we'll take in further development.

There is still the issue of possibly needing to 'expand' the price-scales WHEN the applied indicators (if on the price plot) might extend beyond the limits of the price-data itself.


This is controlled by the study settings already - if you, when inserting a study, select in the Scaling tab the "Same as symbol" option, the indicator will be shown in the same scale - which can mean flattening and pushing down the data series, should its values be many times more than the symbol quotes. If you select "Screen" the indicator chart will be auto-scaled to fit in the same screen area as the symbol.

You can try this out with a simple study - add a Custom 1 line and use a formula "close *100" with Same as Symbol and Screen scaling.

As to the multiple oscillators fitted and not fitted to the same zero line, I think this deserves attention, could you please give us an example (a workspace maybe or just a description ?

Guest

Your Example has a 'Problem' :>))

Postby Guest » 23 Nov 2006

This is controlled by the study settings already - if you, when inserting a study, select in the Scaling tab the "Same as symbol" option, the indicator will be shown in the same scale - which can mean flattening and pushing down the data series, should its values be many times more than the symbol quotes. If you select "Screen" the indicator chart will be auto-scaled to fit in the same screen area as the symbol.

You can try this out with a simple study - add a Custom 1 line and use a formula "close *100" with Same as Symbol and Screen scaling.


Thanks, Alex,... that is a VERY good example to try. But the 'meaning' or interpretation that you associate with the two Scale Type choices, "Screen" and "Same as symbol" is completely opposite meaning to what I think most people would expect. :? Perhaps the meaning has gotten 'lost in the translation' from Russian to English? :P

At the risk of sounding absurd and too pedantic, let me 'explain' what the meaning of "Same as symbol" means to me :) : "Same as Symbol" is the same as saying the 'Scale is determined ONLY by the SYMBOL-PRICE-data", i.e., NO consideration is given to the "custom"-calculated indicator when determinng the max-min parameters of the scale. ONLY the symbol-price data is used for scaling calculations.

So, in your example, when I choose "Same as Symbol", I would expect to see displayed the price-data, and NOT see any indicator values, because they are all off the screen (or 'should be off the screen :wink: ).

BUT, instead, in your nice example, when the "Same as Symbol" is chosen for Scale-Type, I see displayed the example-custom indicator at the top of the screen AND the price-data is all squeezed down to the very bottom of the screen :? .This is the scaling behavior I would 'expect' when chosing the "Screen" Scale-Type, NOT the "Same as symbol".

Too me, the meaning of "Screen" type scaling is that EVERYTHING (i.e., price-data + indicators) is used for calculating the max and min scaling-parameters. I suggest that the word "Screen" should be presented as a choice only for sub-graphs, or non-price data plots. In the case of price-data-plots it add too much confusion.

I might add that this 'confusion' of Scale-Type meaning could be address by making the Scaling-dialog more specific to any assumptions of what is being mixed together on the same plot. For example, if there is NO symbol-price data involved, e.g., a sub-graph of only an oscillator indicator, THEN it makes no sense to include the "Same as Symbol" choice, right? Because there is no price data involved (on the plot-screen).

However, in the case of plotting an indicator such as a price-envelope or a moving average, then that indicator can be plotted as either a separate sub-graph, OR it can be plotted on the same plot (AND scale :wink: ) as the price-data. In the case of applying indicators to the price-plot, what makes any sense for scale-type choices? In this case, all of the current choices could make some sense, except that the "Screen" choice is too ambiguous in meaning (as we have already illustrated by the example :o ).

I think that in the case of plotting price-based indicators that are 'close enough' in value to the price data itself, then the user might want to (A) force the scaling to be determined by only the price data (and ignore any indicator values that happen to go off the screen), OR (B) the user might want to guarantee that the prices+indicator(s) are ALL shown on the screen. However, there is a potential for confusion in this latter case, IF there are more than one symbol being plotted on same plot, because it might be ambiguous as to which grouping of plotted data is associated with which scale-labels, unless that is made specific to all concerned (user AND programmer).

Pipscalper
Posts: 72
Joined: 28 Jul 2006

Postby Pipscalper » 24 Nov 2006

What i meant in my previous post was
If data2 is based on the same symbol with other timeframesetting ,plotted on data1, then the scaling should be set to data1.
Hope now its clear.


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